I know I have suddenly posted a half dozen threads, but it seems that no matter
how long I lurked, no matter how much I researched, there are still things that
(now that I actually have one) I need to ask about the tablet pcs.

So, is it possible to have a tablet pc with a better than 60mhz refresh rate? The
flicker is starting to give a headache. Is there any tweak that I can do to
lessen it a bit (if the refresh can't be overcome)?

--


-callahan

I didn't think refresh rates mattered on a LCD?

Or do you mean on an external CRT?

--
Josh Einstein
Einstein Technologies
--------------------------------------------------------
Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only $19.99!
http://www.einsteinware.com

"Callahan" <ca_callahan@WHATZA_HEYcomputer.org> wrote in message
news:u4tLlkwVEHA.808@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>I know I have suddenly posted a half dozen threads, but it seems that no
>matter
> how long I lurked, no matter how much I researched, there are still things
> that
> (now that I actually have one) I need to ask about the tablet pcs.
>
> So, is it possible to have a tablet pc with a better than 60mhz refresh
> rate? The
> flicker is starting to give a headache. Is there any tweak that I can do
> to
> lessen it a bit (if the refresh can't be overcome)?
>
> --
>
>
> -callahan
>
>

Nope. I mean the LCD. It has a definite rhythmic flicker from the top left
corner down. Maybe it's the light sensor?

For what it's worth, I can see the flicker on a CRT really clearly when
it's set to 60. It's strange, I checked on toshiba, HP, and acer's sites
and they really don't mention refresh rates at all, anywhere.

-callahan
"Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
news:%23g6CgmwVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> I didn't think refresh rates mattered on a LCD?
>
> Or do you mean on an external CRT?
>
> --
> Josh Einstein
> Einstein Technologies
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
$19.99!
> http://www.einsteinware.com
>
> "Callahan" <ca_callahan@WHATZA_HEYcomputer.org> wrote in message
> news:u4tLlkwVEHA.808@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> >I know I have suddenly posted a half dozen threads, but it seems that no
> >matter
> > how long I lurked, no matter how much I researched, there are still
things
> > that
> > (now that I actually have one) I need to ask about the tablet pcs.
> >
> > So, is it possible to have a tablet pc with a better than 60mhz refresh
> > rate? The
> > flicker is starting to give a headache. Is there any tweak that I can
do
> > to
> > lessen it a bit (if the refresh can't be overcome)?
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > -callahan
> >
> >
>
>

It might not be a refresh rate issue. It sounds like a malfunction. On a CRT
60 is low but that's all I've ever seen a LCD at.

--
Josh Einstein
Einstein Technologies
--------------------------------------------------------
Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only $19.99!
http://www.einsteinware.com

"Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:eTjtwAxVEHA.4064@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Nope. I mean the LCD. It has a definite rhythmic flicker from the top
> left
> corner down. Maybe it's the light sensor?
>
> For what it's worth, I can see the flicker on a CRT really clearly when
> it's set to 60. It's strange, I checked on toshiba, HP, and acer's sites
> and they really don't mention refresh rates at all, anywhere.
>
> -callahan
> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> news:%23g6CgmwVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>> I didn't think refresh rates mattered on a LCD?
>>
>> Or do you mean on an external CRT?
>>
>> --
>> Josh Einstein
>> Einstein Technologies
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> $19.99!
>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>
>> "Callahan" <ca_callahan@WHATZA_HEYcomputer.org> wrote in message
>> news:u4tLlkwVEHA.808@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> >I know I have suddenly posted a half dozen threads, but it seems that no
>> >matter
>> > how long I lurked, no matter how much I researched, there are still
> things
>> > that
>> > (now that I actually have one) I need to ask about the tablet pcs.
>> >
>> > So, is it possible to have a tablet pc with a better than 60mhz refresh
>> > rate? The
>> > flicker is starting to give a headache. Is there any tweak that I can
> do
>> > to
>> > lessen it a bit (if the refresh can't be overcome)?
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> > -callahan
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

That is totally a bummer. I really do like the tablet. I have read some
discouraging stories about dealing with Acer concerning returns and
replacement. Despite the slow hard drive and some software glitches
(video/audio not working properly for the franklin planner tutorial, TIP
freezing, etc.), the screen seems to be the biggest and only real reason to
send it back. In addition, I noticed that it ran a little hotter than my
previous laptops, and was a little concerned. I tried to ignore it as I
tried out all the features and doodads. This morning I noticed something
disturbing, that on the bottom of the laptop is a melted spot on the MS
windows xp certificate of authenticity sticker. I didn't use it in any way
that would cause it to wear out anything, so it wasn't me. Unless, of
course, it is a refurb. Is there anyway I can tell?

My fear is that these issues cannot really be fixed and I might as well
either keep the one I have and deal with it (for the price though, that may
not be realistic), return it to the vendor (CDW btw) and get something
different, or try to send it back to be fixed and endure weeks without a
laptop.

Any suggestions, advice?
-callahan


"Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
news:e0VrJGxVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> It might not be a refresh rate issue. It sounds like a malfunction. On a
CRT
> 60 is low but that's all I've ever seen a LCD at.
>
> --
> Josh Einstein
> Einstein Technologies
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
$19.99!
> http://www.einsteinware.com
>
> "Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:eTjtwAxVEHA.4064@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > Nope. I mean the LCD. It has a definite rhythmic flicker from the top
> > left
> > corner down. Maybe it's the light sensor?
> >
> > For what it's worth, I can see the flicker on a CRT really clearly when
> > it's set to 60. It's strange, I checked on toshiba, HP, and acer's
sites
> > and they really don't mention refresh rates at all, anywhere.
> >
> > -callahan
> > "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> > news:%23g6CgmwVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> >> I didn't think refresh rates mattered on a LCD?
> >>
> >> Or do you mean on an external CRT?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Josh Einstein
> >> Einstein Technologies
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> > $19.99!
> >> http://www.einsteinware.com
> >>
> >> "Callahan" <ca_callahan@WHATZA_HEYcomputer.org> wrote in message
> >> news:u4tLlkwVEHA.808@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> >> >I know I have suddenly posted a half dozen threads, but it seems that
no
> >> >matter
> >> > how long I lurked, no matter how much I researched, there are still
> > things
> >> > that
> >> > (now that I actually have one) I need to ask about the tablet pcs.
> >> >
> >> > So, is it possible to have a tablet pc with a better than 60mhz
refresh
> >> > rate? The
> >> > flicker is starting to give a headache. Is there any tweak that I
can
> > do
> >> > to
> >> > lessen it a bit (if the refresh can't be overcome)?
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -callahan
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

"Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:eTjtwAxVEHA.4064@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> For what it's worth, I can see the flicker on a CRT really clearly when
> it's set to 60. It's strange, I checked on toshiba, HP, and acer's sites
> and they really don't mention refresh rates at all, anywhere.

Some people see the flicker on a CRT more than others. Most commonly this
is in people whose eyes make tiny darting movements ("nystagmus"), occurring
in many common conditions such as "lazy eye" (strabismus). But I have the
same impression that the others do, that the persistence of the LCD display
is so long as to make refresh rate unimportant. According to this
hypothesis one would predict that someone who doesn't share your sensitivity
to CRT flicker would have the same problem as you do on the laptop.

I'd call Acer tomorrow or see if you can exchange it where you bought it for
another Acer. I'm one of the people who will complain loudly about Acer
support not being the best but not because they failed to fix my screen
problem. My complaints are because of the shipping option they used AND
their failure to keep me apprised of what was going on. Which meant that a 2
day repair took 8.

A daily phone call fixed the not keeping me updated problem until someone
finally checked and noticed that my email address had not been put in the
update on change box or whatever they call it. Once that was done I did
receive the long promised updates by email.

My Acer Tablet C301 runs much cooler than the HP it replaced. If your is
running as hot as you say and there is a melted spot on the case there is a
hardware problem. Most of the problems I've seen reported with the Acer
tablets relate to screen issues so make sure you go into detail with the
problems you are seeing. FWIW, when I called Acer there was none of the
"restore to factory configuraiton using the rescue disk before we will talk
to you or give you a RMA" nonsense I've had from other vendors.

Since it was returned to me the only issue I've had is with the TIP that I
think is related to SP 2 RC 2 since I've seen another report on a different
model tablet of the same problem.

This really does sound like a hardware problem.

--
Cheryl D. Wise
MS-MVP-FrontPage
http://mvp.wiserways.com


"Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:%23xx78PyVEHA.2908@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> That is totally a bummer. I really do like the tablet. I have read some
> discouraging stories about dealing with Acer concerning returns and
> replacement. Despite the slow hard drive and some software glitches
> (video/audio not working properly for the franklin planner tutorial, TIP
> freezing, etc.), the screen seems to be the biggest and only real reason
> to
> send it back. In addition, I noticed that it ran a little hotter than my
> previous laptops, and was a little concerned. I tried to ignore it as I
> tried out all the features and doodads. This morning I noticed something
> disturbing, that on the bottom of the laptop is a melted spot on the MS
> windows xp certificate of authenticity sticker. I didn't use it in any
> way
> that would cause it to wear out anything, so it wasn't me. Unless, of
> course, it is a refurb. Is there anyway I can tell?
>
> My fear is that these issues cannot really be fixed and I might as well
> either keep the one I have and deal with it (for the price though, that
> may
> not be realistic), return it to the vendor (CDW btw) and get something
> different, or try to send it back to be fixed and endure weeks without a
> laptop.
>
> Any suggestions, advice?
> -callahan
>
>
> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> news:e0VrJGxVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> It might not be a refresh rate issue. It sounds like a malfunction. On a
> CRT
>> 60 is low but that's all I've ever seen a LCD at.
>>
>> --
>> Josh Einstein
>> Einstein Technologies
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> $19.99!
>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>
>> "Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:eTjtwAxVEHA.4064@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> > Nope. I mean the LCD. It has a definite rhythmic flicker from the top
>> > left
>> > corner down. Maybe it's the light sensor?
>> >
>> > For what it's worth, I can see the flicker on a CRT really clearly when
>> > it's set to 60. It's strange, I checked on toshiba, HP, and acer's
> sites
>> > and they really don't mention refresh rates at all, anywhere.
>> >
>> > -callahan
>> > "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> > news:%23g6CgmwVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>> >> I didn't think refresh rates mattered on a LCD?
>> >>
>> >> Or do you mean on an external CRT?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Josh Einstein
>> >> Einstein Technologies
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>> > $19.99!
>> >> http://www.einsteinware.com
>> >>
>> >> "Callahan" <ca_callahan@WHATZA_HEYcomputer.org> wrote in message
>> >> news:u4tLlkwVEHA.808@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> >> >I know I have suddenly posted a half dozen threads, but it seems that
> no
>> >> >matter
>> >> > how long I lurked, no matter how much I researched, there are still
>> > things
>> >> > that
>> >> > (now that I actually have one) I need to ask about the tablet pcs.
>> >> >
>> >> > So, is it possible to have a tablet pc with a better than 60mhz
> refresh
>> >> > rate? The
>> >> > flicker is starting to give a headache. Is there any tweak that I
> can
>> > do
>> >> > to
>> >> > lessen it a bit (if the refresh can't be overcome)?
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -callahan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Thanks Mickey. : ) I do not (for the record) have either a twitchy eye nor
a lazy one. My eyes are a really light brown and I have had some of the
sensitivities that people with light blue eyes have. Also, I have noticed
that women tend to be more sensitive to it than men, and I am one of the
former as well.

I had a friend take a look at it for confirmation (dark blue eyes, wouldn't
notice if a truck hit him, definitely not what one would call the sensitive
type) and he said that he saw a flicker as well (also not known for humoring
me). His suggestion? Send it back and get a HP. I'd rather not. Thus, I
come to you.

As for the flicker sort of being inevitable if you have a certain kind of
eye condition, well, that sort of stands to reason. But it seems to me that
that kind of problem would manifest in a general experience of flickering,
regardless of the screen resolution. As I have had little to no problem in
the past with refreshes on normal crts, I don't figure it's my eyes, so it
must be the LCD. I also have never seen the flicker on any laptop I have
ever owned (even my little thinkpad from '98 doesn't flicker, bless its
heart). I am going to try it again though anyway. Maybe (and maybe I am
just stretchin' here) my eyes were tired or something..

-callahan


"Mickey Segal" <ignored@example.com> wrote in message
news:%23F2u7pyVEHA.4048@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> "Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:eTjtwAxVEHA.4064@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> For what it's worth, I can see the flicker on a CRT really clearly when
>> it's set to 60. It's strange, I checked on toshiba, HP, and acer's sites
>> and they really don't mention refresh rates at all, anywhere.
>
> Some people see the flicker on a CRT more than others. Most commonly this
> is in people whose eyes make tiny darting movements ("nystagmus"),
> occurring
> in many common conditions such as "lazy eye" (strabismus). But I have the
> same impression that the others do, that the persistence of the LCD
> display
> is so long as to make refresh rate unimportant. According to this
> hypothesis one would predict that someone who doesn't share your
> sensitivity
> to CRT flicker would have the same problem as you do on the laptop.
>
>

The only reported "flickering" I remember mentioned here was a factory
defect. Sorry, but off the top of my head, I don't recall brand itself, but
do remember the machine was sent in for a sensor repair or something. I've
currently got three Tablet PCs - Motion 1300, Acer C100 and Toshiba M200 -
all operating at 60, with no perceivable flicker. (And I were trifocals.)
8-)
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone


"Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uqvCxN6VEHA.2188@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Thanks Mickey. : ) I do not (for the record) have either a twitchy eye
> nor a lazy one. My eyes are a really light brown and I have had some of
> the sensitivities that people with light blue eyes have. Also, I have
> noticed that women tend to be more sensitive to it than men, and I am one
> of the former as well.
>
> I had a friend take a look at it for confirmation (dark blue eyes,
> wouldn't notice if a truck hit him, definitely not what one would call the
> sensitive type) and he said that he saw a flicker as well (also not known
> for humoring me). His suggestion? Send it back and get a HP. I'd rather
> not. Thus, I come to you.
>
> As for the flicker sort of being inevitable if you have a certain kind of
> eye condition, well, that sort of stands to reason. But it seems to me
> that that kind of problem would manifest in a general experience of
> flickering, regardless of the screen resolution. As I have had little to
> no problem in the past with refreshes on normal crts, I don't figure it's
> my eyes, so it must be the LCD. I also have never seen the flicker on any
> laptop I have ever owned (even my little thinkpad from '98 doesn't
> flicker, bless its heart). I am going to try it again though anyway.
> Maybe (and maybe I am just stretchin' here) my eyes were tired or
> something..
>
> -callahan

"Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uqvCxN6VEHA.2188@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> As for the flicker sort of being inevitable if you have a certain kind of
> eye condition, well, that sort of stands to reason. But it seems to me
that
> that kind of problem would manifest in a general experience of flickering,
> regardless of the screen resolution.

Higher refresh rates, even ones of 75 Hz, seem to fix the flickering problem
that most people with nystagmus see with displays set at 60 Hz. Some people
can walk up to a monitor and tell you immediately if it is at 60 Hz while
most others will never have a clue anything is not set properly. It does
seem surprising that a small change makes such a big difference, but it
does, presumably due to some persistence threshold. About half of CRTs seem
to be left at 60 Hz for Windows computers; on the Macintosh the setup is
better and this seldom happens.

As we all suspected, the problem in your case seems to be defective
hardware.

Thanks. It breaks my heart, but I'm making the call tomorrow so the tablet can go
back for replacement.

Seriously, I appreciate the advice. I felt as if I were making the decision in a
vacuum. Is it hardware, software, or my imagination? No one I know has ever
tried a tabletpc and everyone around here that I asked flatly didn't know what was
normal and acceptable and what wasn't. If not for you (all) I would always kinda
doubt
that I did the right thing.

--


-callahan
"Mickey Segal" <ignored@example.com> wrote in message
news:eNQnER%23VEHA.3336@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> "Callahan" <callahanmct@SPAMBAD.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:uqvCxN6VEHA.2188@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > As for the flicker sort of being inevitable if you have a certain kind of
> > eye condition, well, that sort of stands to reason. But it seems to me
> that
> > that kind of problem would manifest in a general experience of flickering,
> > regardless of the screen resolution.
>
> Higher refresh rates, even ones of 75 Hz, seem to fix the flickering problem
> that most people with nystagmus see with displays set at 60 Hz. Some people
> can walk up to a monitor and tell you immediately if it is at 60 Hz while
> most others will never have a clue anything is not set properly. It does
> seem surprising that a small change makes such a big difference, but it
> does, presumably due to some persistence threshold. About half of CRTs seem
> to be left at 60 Hz for Windows computers; on the Macintosh the setup is
> better and this seldom happens.
>
> As we all suspected, the problem in your case seems to be defective
> hardware.
>
>

Believe me I understand about it breaking your heart to send in your new
tablet so soon after getting it. I felt and still feel the same way.

Hopefully it will be back better than new soon. I'd recommend getting it in
ASAP so you don't get hit like I did having it sit on a FedEx shipping dock
while everyone is off for a long weekend.

--
Cheryl D. Wise
MS-MVP-FrontPage
http://mvp.wiserways.com


"Callahan" <ca_callahan@WHATZA_HEYcomputer.org> wrote in message
news:uJSnZp$VEHA.3524@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Thanks. It breaks my heart, but I'm making the call tomorrow so the
> tablet can go
> back for replacement.
>
> Seriously, I appreciate the advice. I felt as if I were making the
> decision in a
> vacuum. Is it hardware, software, or my imagination? No one I know has
> ever
> tried a tabletpc and everyone around here that I asked flatly didn't know
> what was
> normal and acceptable and what wasn't. If not for you (all) I would
> always kinda
> doubt
> that I did the right thing.

Mickey Segal wrote:

>> For what it's worth, I can see the flicker on a CRT really clearly when
>> it's set to 60. It's strange, I checked on toshiba, HP, and acer's sites
>> and they really don't mention refresh rates at all, anywhere.
>
>Some people see the flicker on a CRT more than others. Most commonly this
>is in people whose eyes make tiny darting movements ("nystagmus"), occurring
>in many common conditions such as "lazy eye" (strabismus). But I have the
>same impression that the others do, that the persistence of the LCD display
>is so long as to make refresh rate unimportant.

That's right. In fact the complaint is usually the other way - that the
response of an LCD is so slow that you do not get good quality in fast
moving displays (eg games)


--
Alex Nichol MS MVP (Windows Technologies)
Bournemouth, U.K. Alexn@mvps.D8E8L.org (remove the D8 bit)

"Alex Nichol" <alexn.mvpdts@ntlworld.delete.com> wrote in message
news:jdugd0h0f107crbndb77cht0j4dlu2gta4@4ax.com...
> That's right. In fact the complaint is usually the other way - that the
> response of an LCD is so slow that you do not get good quality in fast
> moving displays (eg games)

I believe that the concept of refresh flicker that is well known for CRTs is
NOT even relevant to LCDs and therefore an LCD's refresh rate isn't
associated with flicker. On a CRT a dot/pixel is made bright for a short
instant about once every 1/60 sec. and that period is in the 10-s
nanoseconds. A dot/pixel immediately goes dark/black immediately at the
persistence decay rate of that CRT's phosphor.. That 60 times per second
very bright to dark cycle is what some folks nervous systems(NOT EYES) are
sensitive to.

On a LCD the pixel stays constant at the current setting until changed.
There is NO blink. The 60 Hz refresh rate on an LCD is the change to new
value rate and NOT a blink rate. Therefore the nervous systems sensitivity
to a 60 Hz blink rate has NO equivalent on a LCD.