Go ahead, Josh. Don't you believe Microsoft would have done it already if
it had been feasible?
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone


"Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
news:erjx86NVEHA.3788@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>I hear what you're saying but you've not said why existing apps would
>break.
>
> I think I need to talk to a developer about it to understand what the big
> problem is.
>
> --
> Josh Einstein
> Einstein Technologies
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> $19.99!
> http://www.einsteinware.com

The problem is deeper than just existing applications, it's downright Win32
API that hasn't changed (much) since Win 3.1. APIs like PointToClient, and
PointToScreen get confused by scrollbars, scrollbar positions get lost by
panels on a windows app, there is so much mapping going on to keep the
scrollbar firmly stuck to the right hand side and the bottom side that it is
near impossible to switch it otherwise.

To appreciate this, create a simple application, put a panel on it, with
autoscroll, few other resizable autoscrollable child controls and resize the
whole thing, and see how much code you have to write yourself to make
everything work seamlessly.

Now think of Microsoft's job to write all that in C++/assembly, rather
modify Win32 API code written by people some of whom may already be dead. ..

..... bottom line .. it ain't easy.

Speaking of Right to Left Languages, thats a small enough audience who will
put up with a few pages not working optimal for being able to work in Right
to Left. You cannot apply the same argument to English - for 4% of lefties,
it isn't sensible to break every single app for the rest of the 96% .. thats
why :)

- Sahil Malik
Independent Consultant
You can reach me thru my blog at -
http://www.dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/sahilmalik/



"Mike Williams [MVP]" <mikew@Nospam]mvps.org> wrote in message
news:uT6ppPNVEHA.1048@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>
> "mjmattson" <mjmattson@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:003BEE93-F199-497C-AA2E-D6A3A935F068@microsoft.com...
> >I figured with Bill Gates being left-handed this would have been
something
> >looked at. I can wait until LongHorn...just wondered if it had been
looked
> >at.
> >
> > I appreciate all the information provided.
>
> A larger-than-average proportion of the Tablet architects is left-handed
and
> this discussion has been had since the very earliest days. There also some
> problems with legacy code in some of the standard Windows libraries that
> don't produce very good menu flyout behaviour when switched to left-hand
> user behaviour.
>
> Windows does support switching scroll-bars over for Arabic and Hebrew
> systems, but many third-party Win32 applications that are untested in
these
> scenarios will crash.
>
>

Josh,

You must be a Young programmer (No offense intended). I remember to good
old days that everything's possible, including writing an OS from scratch
:-) But understand that, although it is technically possible, sometimes, it
is not financially possible or feasible.

The scrollbar, which like the "Button" is part of the OS. Any change to it
will require a change in the API. In this case, MS will have to add a new
Property to the scrollbar class to state it's location (left or right).
There are a few problems come to mind already:
1) A change like this, will require a new system DLL be distributed to all
users. i.e. Can only be done with new OS or Service pack. There was just
an article out there saying it is going to cost quite a bit of money to
distribute XP SP2 (not the development cost!)
2) If it is distributed as a Service Pack, you risk user who didn't
upgrade...
3) Since it is a change in the Scrollbar class, the length/size of the
class is different from the previous version. i.e. Almost all existing
Apps compiled against the old system DLL will have to RECOMPILED. The class
entry points, function entry points are all different now. i.e. No old
Apps can easily run on the new system patched with the new DLL (again, it is
possible for MS to do some magic tricks to address this, but not easy).
4) Now, think about No 2 again... Supposed all vendors recompiled their
apps, but all of a sudden, a user tries to run apps under old DLL. You face
the same problem of this app might try to look for the DLL entry point at
the wrong place.

To summarize, "Welcome to DLL Hell" :-)


"Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
news:uRaIL6NVEHA.2320@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>I hear what you're saying but you've not said why existing apps would
>break.
>
> I think I need to talk to a developer about it to understand what the big
> problem is.
>
> --
> Josh Einstein
> Einstein Technologies
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> $19.99!
> http://www.einsteinware.com
>
> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> news:eOz1SqNVEHA.716@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> Read Mike Williams post, Josh. Believe me, we've gone over this many
>> years ago, and until we have an operating system built from the ground
>> up - one that doesn't depend on legacy items - we're stuck with what
>> we've got. I've got a lefty daughter, and she copes just fine. It could
>> be easier for her, but with the discussions I've been part of over the
>> years it isn't economically feasible with the current OS.
>> --
>> Chris H.
>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>> Associate Expert
>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>
>>
>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> news:utvIxYNVEHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>>> Okay that's respectable. But then I won't admit I am wrong. :) I will
>>> try to get a technical explanation of this issue from the MS guys then,
>>> because as a windows developer, I see no reason why this is not
>>> possible. Scrollbars are nonclient areas which means the OS is
>>> responsible for creating them. Just as apps aren't affected by XP
>>> skinning them, so should they not be affected by orientation change.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Josh Einstein
>>> Einstein Technologies
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>>> $19.99!
>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>>
>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eW5ApQNVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>> Josh, I won't debate with you what Microsoft developers have said.
>>>> Certain programs can do certain things, like I pointed out with OneNote
>>>> currently (SP1 form), but the entire operating system is another issue.
>>>> --
>>>> Chris H.
>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>>> Associate Expert
>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:e3XeWFNVEHA.264@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>> That's not true. Things like multiline text boxes and html pages have
>>>>> scrollbars by default. Developers don't do anything special to create
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the operating system simply rendered them on the left, the
>>>>> developer wouldn't have to do anything differently. If you can give me
>>>>> an example of something that would break, I will admit I'm wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a look at the IE menu I described. If they can draw a scrollbar
>>>>> on the left when I click a menu, then why not always?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>>>>> $19.99!
>>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u97nRpMVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Josh, as Terri has said, and I tried to impart in my response,
>>>>>> Microsoft has dealt with this issue for years. Bill Gates is
>>>>>> left-handed. An example is Microsoft can set this up for $50,000
>>>>>> investment for research, development and adjustments on its current
>>>>>> programs and operating systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other software companies around the world would need to spend
>>>>>> millions or billions of dollars to revamp/rewrite their software to
>>>>>> comply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guess what the prudent approach is Microsoft has chosen to take until
>>>>>> the Longhorn timeframe?
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Chris H.
>>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>>>>> Associate Expert
>>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:%23IZK4$LVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> In Internet Explorer, click the View Menu -> Encoding -> Right to
>>>>>>> Left Document.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It messes up the way some things look unfortunately, and it has to
>>>>>>> be set for each page. Web designers can apply this to individual
>>>>>>> DIV's too which Spencer Goad has done on his web site
>>>>>>> (www.tabletpcbuzz.com) so if you wanna check that out, go into the
>>>>>>> profile after you've become a member and change your handedness to
>>>>>>> left handed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the ability is technically there. It's just a matter of changing
>>>>>>> the base controls. I can't forsee any major impact this would have
>>>>>>> on existing applications so if it's a very necessary feature, MS
>>>>>>> should be able to easily implement it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Thanks for insulting me. :)

I'm young, but I am not by any means new to software development. My
argument was not that changes to the API would require recompilation to take
advantage of the features. I know what version changes are like.

However, when you create a multiline textbox, or (an even simpler example)
when you create an HTML application or web page that uses IE as the
container, you simply request the presence of a scroll bar. You are not
responsible for creating that scroll bar nor does your application need to
know anything about the location of the scroll bar. That's the operating
system's job of drawing.

Someone mentioned PointToClient and ClientToScreen needing to be changed. Of
course they'd need to be changed, but that's part of the OS implementing it.
My argument was not that it wouldn't require changes to several API's,
rather that these changes should be able to be transparent to existing
applications. That's the whole reason PointToClient and ClientToScreen were
created, because you aren't supposed to know what's outside of your client
area or how your client area relates to the screen -- that's the OS's job.

So let me play devil's advocate here. Let's say I am wrong about the Win32
API (not saying I am or am not wrong, just have not yet heard anything that
makes me think it's not possible to do transparently). Why can't Internet
Explorer easily have a left hand scroll bar option? Web pages are not
dependent on the scroll bar being on the right.

Granted, you won't be able to catch custom scroll bar implementations
(flash, java, etc) but your OS-supplied scroll bars (such as on listboxes,
multiline text boxes) and your browser-supplied scroll bars (scrollable
DIV's, BODY, frames, etc) should be able to be relocated with minimal
application changes.

I can see I'm outnumbered here so I'll stop wasting space on Microsoft's
servers. I just still don't see what requires a recompilation.

--
Josh Einstein
Einstein Technologies
--------------------------------------------------------
Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only $19.99!
http://www.einsteinware.com

"Smartikat" <wonga@_SMARTIKAT_MossMotors.com> wrote in message
news:uEHi%23LWVEHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Josh,
>
> You must be a Young programmer (No offense intended). I remember to good
> old days that everything's possible, including writing an OS from scratch
> :-) But understand that, although it is technically possible, sometimes,
> it is not financially possible or feasible.
>
> The scrollbar, which like the "Button" is part of the OS. Any change to
> it will require a change in the API. In this case, MS will have to add a
> new Property to the scrollbar class to state it's location (left or
> right). There are a few problems come to mind already:
> 1) A change like this, will require a new system DLL be distributed to
> all users. i.e. Can only be done with new OS or Service pack. There was
> just an article out there saying it is going to cost quite a bit of money
> to distribute XP SP2 (not the development cost!)
> 2) If it is distributed as a Service Pack, you risk user who didn't
> upgrade...
> 3) Since it is a change in the Scrollbar class, the length/size of the
> class is different from the previous version. i.e. Almost all existing
> Apps compiled against the old system DLL will have to RECOMPILED. The
> class entry points, function entry points are all different now. i.e. No
> old Apps can easily run on the new system patched with the new DLL (again,
> it is possible for MS to do some magic tricks to address this, but not
> easy).
> 4) Now, think about No 2 again... Supposed all vendors recompiled their
> apps, but all of a sudden, a user tries to run apps under old DLL. You
> face the same problem of this app might try to look for the DLL entry
> point at the wrong place.
>
> To summarize, "Welcome to DLL Hell" :-)
>
>
> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> news:uRaIL6NVEHA.2320@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>I hear what you're saying but you've not said why existing apps would
>>break.
>>
>> I think I need to talk to a developer about it to understand what the big
>> problem is.
>>
>> --
>> Josh Einstein
>> Einstein Technologies
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>> $19.99!
>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>
>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>> news:eOz1SqNVEHA.716@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>>> Read Mike Williams post, Josh. Believe me, we've gone over this many
>>> years ago, and until we have an operating system built from the ground
>>> up - one that doesn't depend on legacy items - we're stuck with what
>>> we've got. I've got a lefty daughter, and she copes just fine. It
>>> could be easier for her, but with the discussions I've been part of over
>>> the years it isn't economically feasible with the current OS.
>>> --
>>> Chris H.
>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>> Associate Expert
>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>
>>>
>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>> news:utvIxYNVEHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>>>> Okay that's respectable. But then I won't admit I am wrong. :) I will
>>>> try to get a technical explanation of this issue from the MS guys then,
>>>> because as a windows developer, I see no reason why this is not
>>>> possible. Scrollbars are nonclient areas which means the OS is
>>>> responsible for creating them. Just as apps aren't affected by XP
>>>> skinning them, so should they not be affected by orientation change.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>>>> $19.99!
>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>>>
>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:eW5ApQNVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Josh, I won't debate with you what Microsoft developers have said.
>>>>> Certain programs can do certain things, like I pointed out with
>>>>> OneNote currently (SP1 form), but the entire operating system is
>>>>> another issue.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Chris H.
>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>>>> Associate Expert
>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:e3XeWFNVEHA.264@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> That's not true. Things like multiline text boxes and html pages have
>>>>>> scrollbars by default. Developers don't do anything special to create
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the operating system simply rendered them on the left, the
>>>>>> developer wouldn't have to do anything differently. If you can give
>>>>>> me an example of something that would break, I will admit I'm wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a look at the IE menu I described. If they can draw a scrollbar
>>>>>> on the left when I click a menu, then why not always?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>>>>>> $19.99!
>>>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u97nRpMVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Josh, as Terri has said, and I tried to impart in my response,
>>>>>>> Microsoft has dealt with this issue for years. Bill Gates is
>>>>>>> left-handed. An example is Microsoft can set this up for $50,000
>>>>>>> investment for research, development and adjustments on its current
>>>>>>> programs and operating systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other software companies around the world would need to spend
>>>>>>> millions or billions of dollars to revamp/rewrite their software to
>>>>>>> comply.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guess what the prudent approach is Microsoft has chosen to take
>>>>>>> until the Longhorn timeframe?
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Chris H.
>>>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>>>>>> Associate Expert
>>>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:%23IZK4$LVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> In Internet Explorer, click the View Menu -> Encoding -> Right to
>>>>>>>> Left Document.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It messes up the way some things look unfortunately, and it has to
>>>>>>>> be set for each page. Web designers can apply this to individual
>>>>>>>> DIV's too which Spencer Goad has done on his web site
>>>>>>>> (www.tabletpcbuzz.com) so if you wanna check that out, go into the
>>>>>>>> profile after you've become a member and change your handedness to
>>>>>>>> left handed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So the ability is technically there. It's just a matter of changing
>>>>>>>> the base controls. I can't forsee any major impact this would have
>>>>>>>> on existing applications so if it's a very necessary feature, MS
>>>>>>>> should be able to easily implement it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Josh, it isn't that you're wasting anyone's time. It is time well spent to
learn. However, believe me as I and others have attempted to inform you,
Microsoft looked into these possibilities years ago and spent a whole lot of
development dollars in doing so.

What you're saying certainly can be done, and has been done in the labs.
However, the affect and requirements on all the other software companies in
the world is too costly to implement.

Look for changes in the Longhorn operating system. That's when the "basics"
will probably be put in place, since the OS is being built from the ground
up unfettered by the Win9x and NT legacy.
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone


"Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
news:eEU%23RpXVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Thanks for insulting me. :)
>
> I'm young, but I am not by any means new to software development. My
> argument was not that changes to the API would require recompilation to
> take advantage of the features. I know what version changes are like.
>
> However, when you create a multiline textbox, or (an even simpler example)
> when you create an HTML application or web page that uses IE as the
> container, you simply request the presence of a scroll bar. You are not
> responsible for creating that scroll bar nor does your application need to
> know anything about the location of the scroll bar. That's the operating
> system's job of drawing.
>
> Someone mentioned PointToClient and ClientToScreen needing to be changed.
> Of course they'd need to be changed, but that's part of the OS
> implementing it. My argument was not that it wouldn't require changes to
> several API's, rather that these changes should be able to be transparent
> to existing applications. That's the whole reason PointToClient and
> ClientToScreen were created, because you aren't supposed to know what's
> outside of your client area or how your client area relates to the
> screen -- that's the OS's job.
>
> So let me play devil's advocate here. Let's say I am wrong about the Win32
> API (not saying I am or am not wrong, just have not yet heard anything
> that makes me think it's not possible to do transparently). Why can't
> Internet Explorer easily have a left hand scroll bar option? Web pages are
> not dependent on the scroll bar being on the right.
>
> Granted, you won't be able to catch custom scroll bar implementations
> (flash, java, etc) but your OS-supplied scroll bars (such as on listboxes,
> multiline text boxes) and your browser-supplied scroll bars (scrollable
> DIV's, BODY, frames, etc) should be able to be relocated with minimal
> application changes.
>
> I can see I'm outnumbered here so I'll stop wasting space on Microsoft's
> servers. I just still don't see what requires a recompilation.
>
> --
> Josh Einstein
> Einstein Technologies
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> $19.99!
> http://www.einsteinware.com
>
> "Smartikat" <wonga@_SMARTIKAT_MossMotors.com> wrote in message
> news:uEHi%23LWVEHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>> Josh,
>>
>> You must be a Young programmer (No offense intended). I remember to good
>> old days that everything's possible, including writing an OS from scratch
>> :-) But understand that, although it is technically possible, sometimes,
>> it is not financially possible or feasible.
>>
>> The scrollbar, which like the "Button" is part of the OS. Any change to
>> it will require a change in the API. In this case, MS will have to add a
>> new Property to the scrollbar class to state it's location (left or
>> right). There are a few problems come to mind already:
>> 1) A change like this, will require a new system DLL be distributed to
>> all users. i.e. Can only be done with new OS or Service pack. There
>> was just an article out there saying it is going to cost quite a bit of
>> money to distribute XP SP2 (not the development cost!)
>> 2) If it is distributed as a Service Pack, you risk user who didn't
>> upgrade...
>> 3) Since it is a change in the Scrollbar class, the length/size of the
>> class is different from the previous version. i.e. Almost all existing
>> Apps compiled against the old system DLL will have to RECOMPILED. The
>> class entry points, function entry points are all different now. i.e.
>> No old Apps can easily run on the new system patched with the new DLL
>> (again, it is possible for MS to do some magic tricks to address this,
>> but not easy).
>> 4) Now, think about No 2 again... Supposed all vendors recompiled their
>> apps, but all of a sudden, a user tries to run apps under old DLL. You
>> face the same problem of this app might try to look for the DLL entry
>> point at the wrong place.
>>
>> To summarize, "Welcome to DLL Hell" :-)
>>
>>
>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> news:uRaIL6NVEHA.2320@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>I hear what you're saying but you've not said why existing apps would
>>>break.
>>>
>>> I think I need to talk to a developer about it to understand what the
>>> big problem is.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Josh Einstein
>>> Einstein Technologies
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>>> $19.99!
>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>>
>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eOz1SqNVEHA.716@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>>>> Read Mike Williams post, Josh. Believe me, we've gone over this many
>>>> years ago, and until we have an operating system built from the ground
>>>> up - one that doesn't depend on legacy items - we're stuck with what
>>>> we've got. I've got a lefty daughter, and she copes just fine. It
>>>> could be easier for her, but with the discussions I've been part of
>>>> over the years it isn't economically feasible with the current OS.
>>>> --
>>>> Chris H.
>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>>> Associate Expert
>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:utvIxYNVEHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Okay that's respectable. But then I won't admit I am wrong. :) I will
>>>>> try to get a technical explanation of this issue from the MS guys
>>>>> then, because as a windows developer, I see no reason why this is not
>>>>> possible. Scrollbars are nonclient areas which means the OS is
>>>>> responsible for creating them. Just as apps aren't affected by XP
>>>>> skinning them, so should they not be affected by orientation change.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>>>>> $19.99!
>>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:eW5ApQNVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Josh, I won't debate with you what Microsoft developers have said.
>>>>>> Certain programs can do certain things, like I pointed out with
>>>>>> OneNote currently (SP1 form), but the entire operating system is
>>>>>> another issue.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Chris H.
>>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>>>>> Associate Expert
>>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:e3XeWFNVEHA.264@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> That's not true. Things like multiline text boxes and html pages
>>>>>>> have scrollbars by default. Developers don't do anything special to
>>>>>>> create them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the operating system simply rendered them on the left, the
>>>>>>> developer wouldn't have to do anything differently. If you can give
>>>>>>> me an example of something that would break, I will admit I'm wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the IE menu I described. If they can draw a scrollbar
>>>>>>> on the left when I click a menu, then why not always?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>>>>>>> $19.99!
>>>>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:u97nRpMVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Josh, as Terri has said, and I tried to impart in my response,
>>>>>>>> Microsoft has dealt with this issue for years. Bill Gates is
>>>>>>>> left-handed. An example is Microsoft can set this up for $50,000
>>>>>>>> investment for research, development and adjustments on its current
>>>>>>>> programs and operating systems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The other software companies around the world would need to spend
>>>>>>>> millions or billions of dollars to revamp/rewrite their software to
>>>>>>>> comply.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Guess what the prudent approach is Microsoft has chosen to take
>>>>>>>> until the Longhorn timeframe?
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Chris H.
>>>>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>>>>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>>>>>>>> Associate Expert
>>>>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:%23IZK4$LVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> In Internet Explorer, click the View Menu -> Encoding -> Right to
>>>>>>>>> Left Document.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It messes up the way some things look unfortunately, and it has to
>>>>>>>>> be set for each page. Web designers can apply this to individual
>>>>>>>>> DIV's too which Spencer Goad has done on his web site
>>>>>>>>> (www.tabletpcbuzz.com) so if you wanna check that out, go into the
>>>>>>>>> profile after you've become a member and change your handedness to
>>>>>>>>> left handed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So the ability is technically there. It's just a matter of
>>>>>>>>> changing the base controls. I can't forsee any major impact this
>>>>>>>>> would have on existing applications so if it's a very necessary
>>>>>>>>> feature, MS should be able to easily implement it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Josh Einstein
>>>>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

I might not have chosen the best place to post this issue/question, but this discussion seems similar enough to my question that I'll risk a little a bit of harassment to spin this in a slightly different direction.

I've had my tablet for a whole 5 days now - a Motion M1400 - and I am really excited to incorporate it into my work habits. I've installed the latest SR2 beta, with which I imediately appreciated the improvements in the OS.

But like the the thread originator, I do find it frustrating to have things under my hand that I have to constantly move to see. In my case, I'm right-handed, but the menus that constantly open to the right (immediately under my hand) or the tool tips (I think that's what they're called - the little identifiers that appear when you hover over an icon) that always appear below and to the right of the cusor ARE DRIVING ME NUTS!

Ok, not quite nuts. but it is certainly annoying.

Isn't there a way to move the Start button to the right-hand side of the screen, and have all menus open to the left? (I've tried putting the whole bar on the right-hand side of the screen, but I still have menus that want to open to the right) Same with the tool tips - anyway to control their position when they appear? Upper left for righties and upper left for lefties would be preferrable to what we have today?

Isn't that controllable in the OS?

My point exactly. It seems that this might be implemented with the Lonestar OS, but not now. It would really help usability.

Matt

"Rich" wrote:

> I might not have chosen the best place to post this issue/question, but this discussion seems similar enough to my question that I'll risk a little a bit of harassment to spin this in a slightly different direction.
>
> I've had my tablet for a whole 5 days now - a Motion M1400 - and I am really excited to incorporate it into my work habits. I've installed the latest SR2 beta, with which I imediately appreciated the improvements in the OS.
>
> But like the the thread originator, I do find it frustrating to have things under my hand that I have to constantly move to see. In my case, I'm right-handed, but the menus that constantly open to the right (immediately under my hand) or the tool tips (I think that's what they're called - the little identifiers that appear when you hover over an icon) that always appear below and to the right of the cusor ARE DRIVING ME NUTS!
>
> Ok, not quite nuts. but it is certainly annoying.
>
> Isn't there a way to move the Start button to the right-hand side of the screen, and have all menus open to the left? (I've tried putting the whole bar on the right-hand side of the screen, but I still have menus that want to open to the right) Same with the tool tips - anyway to control their position when they appear? Upper left for righties and upper left for lefties would be preferrable to what we have today?
>
> Isn't that controllable in the OS?

"mjmattson" <mjmattson@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:9E8D80E3-DD5D-45E2-B91E-AE9CB538DB6E@microsoft.com...
> My point exactly. It seems that this might be implemented with the
> Lonestar OS, but not now. It would really help usability.

Lonestar is a small service-pack level adjustment to XP, not a new OS.

Josh,

The people on these newsgroups are probably the best you will ever find. As
long as your discussion is even remotely connected to what is pertinent, it
is not wasting anyone's time, and nobody's insulting anyone. That is the
good thing about these newsgroups - High Quality, Low Ego ..

Right Chris? :)

- SM


"Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
news:uTw4TwXVEHA.3540@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Josh, it isn't that you're wasting anyone's time. It is time well spent
to
> learn. However, believe me as I and others have attempted to inform you,
> Microsoft looked into these possibilities years ago and spent a whole lot
of
> development dollars in doing so.
>
> What you're saying certainly can be done, and has been done in the labs.
> However, the affect and requirements on all the other software companies
in
> the world is too costly to implement.
>
> Look for changes in the Longhorn operating system. That's when the
"basics"
> will probably be put in place, since the OS is being built from the ground
> up unfettered by the Win9x and NT legacy.
> --
> Chris H.
> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> Associate Expert
> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>
>
> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> news:eEU%23RpXVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > Thanks for insulting me. :)
> >
> > I'm young, but I am not by any means new to software development. My
> > argument was not that changes to the API would require recompilation to
> > take advantage of the features. I know what version changes are like.
> >
> > However, when you create a multiline textbox, or (an even simpler
example)
> > when you create an HTML application or web page that uses IE as the
> > container, you simply request the presence of a scroll bar. You are not
> > responsible for creating that scroll bar nor does your application need
to
> > know anything about the location of the scroll bar. That's the operating
> > system's job of drawing.
> >
> > Someone mentioned PointToClient and ClientToScreen needing to be
changed.
> > Of course they'd need to be changed, but that's part of the OS
> > implementing it. My argument was not that it wouldn't require changes to
> > several API's, rather that these changes should be able to be
transparent
> > to existing applications. That's the whole reason PointToClient and
> > ClientToScreen were created, because you aren't supposed to know what's
> > outside of your client area or how your client area relates to the
> > screen -- that's the OS's job.
> >
> > So let me play devil's advocate here. Let's say I am wrong about the
Win32
> > API (not saying I am or am not wrong, just have not yet heard anything
> > that makes me think it's not possible to do transparently). Why can't
> > Internet Explorer easily have a left hand scroll bar option? Web pages
are
> > not dependent on the scroll bar being on the right.
> >
> > Granted, you won't be able to catch custom scroll bar implementations
> > (flash, java, etc) but your OS-supplied scroll bars (such as on
listboxes,
> > multiline text boxes) and your browser-supplied scroll bars (scrollable
> > DIV's, BODY, frames, etc) should be able to be relocated with minimal
> > application changes.
> >
> > I can see I'm outnumbered here so I'll stop wasting space on Microsoft's
> > servers. I just still don't see what requires a recompilation.
> >
> > --
> > Josh Einstein
> > Einstein Technologies
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> > $19.99!
> > http://www.einsteinware.com
> >
> > "Smartikat" <wonga@_SMARTIKAT_MossMotors.com> wrote in message
> > news:uEHi%23LWVEHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> >> Josh,
> >>
> >> You must be a Young programmer (No offense intended). I remember to
good
> >> old days that everything's possible, including writing an OS from scrat
ch
> >> :-) But understand that, although it is technically possible,
sometimes,
> >> it is not financially possible or feasible.
> >>
> >> The scrollbar, which like the "Button" is part of the OS. Any change
to
> >> it will require a change in the API. In this case, MS will have to add
a
> >> new Property to the scrollbar class to state it's location (left or
> >> right). There are a few problems come to mind already:
> >> 1) A change like this, will require a new system DLL be distributed to
> >> all users. i.e. Can only be done with new OS or Service pack. There
> >> was just an article out there saying it is going to cost quite a bit of
> >> money to distribute XP SP2 (not the development cost!)
> >> 2) If it is distributed as a Service Pack, you risk user who didn't
> >> upgrade...
> >> 3) Since it is a change in the Scrollbar class, the length/size of the
> >> class is different from the previous version. i.e. Almost all
existing
> >> Apps compiled against the old system DLL will have to RECOMPILED. The
> >> class entry points, function entry points are all different now. i.e.
> >> No old Apps can easily run on the new system patched with the new DLL
> >> (again, it is possible for MS to do some magic tricks to address this,
> >> but not easy).
> >> 4) Now, think about No 2 again... Supposed all vendors recompiled
their
> >> apps, but all of a sudden, a user tries to run apps under old DLL. You
> >> face the same problem of this app might try to look for the DLL entry
> >> point at the wrong place.
> >>
> >> To summarize, "Welcome to DLL Hell" :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> >> news:uRaIL6NVEHA.2320@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >>>I hear what you're saying but you've not said why existing apps would
> >>>break.
> >>>
> >>> I think I need to talk to a developer about it to understand what the
> >>> big problem is.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Josh Einstein
> >>> Einstein Technologies
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> >>> $19.99!
> >>> http://www.einsteinware.com
> >>>
> >>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:eOz1SqNVEHA.716@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> >>>> Read Mike Williams post, Josh. Believe me, we've gone over this many
> >>>> years ago, and until we have an operating system built from the
ground
> >>>> up - one that doesn't depend on legacy items - we're stuck with what
> >>>> we've got. I've got a lefty daughter, and she copes just fine. It
> >>>> could be easier for her, but with the discussions I've been part of
> >>>> over the years it isn't economically feasible with the current OS.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Chris H.
> >>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> >>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> >>>> Associate Expert
> >>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:utvIxYNVEHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> >>>>> Okay that's respectable. But then I won't admit I am wrong. :) I
will
> >>>>> try to get a technical explanation of this issue from the MS guys
> >>>>> then, because as a windows developer, I see no reason why this is
not
> >>>>> possible. Scrollbars are nonclient areas which means the OS is
> >>>>> responsible for creating them. Just as apps aren't affected by XP
> >>>>> skinning them, so should they not be affected by orientation change.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Josh Einstein
> >>>>> Einstein Technologies
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> >>>>> $19.99!
> >>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:eW5ApQNVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> >>>>>> Josh, I won't debate with you what Microsoft developers have said.
> >>>>>> Certain programs can do certain things, like I pointed out with
> >>>>>> OneNote currently (SP1 form), but the entire operating system is
> >>>>>> another issue.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Chris H.
> >>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> >>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> >>>>>> Associate Expert
> >>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>> news:e3XeWFNVEHA.264@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >>>>>>> That's not true. Things like multiline text boxes and html pages
> >>>>>>> have scrollbars by default. Developers don't do anything special
to
> >>>>>>> create them.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If the operating system simply rendered them on the left, the
> >>>>>>> developer wouldn't have to do anything differently. If you can
give
> >>>>>>> me an example of something that would break, I will admit I'm
wrong.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Take a look at the IE menu I described. If they can draw a
scrollbar
> >>>>>>> on the left when I click a menu, then why not always?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Josh Einstein
> >>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook!
Only
> >>>>>>> $19.99!
> >>>>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>> news:u97nRpMVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> >>>>>>>> Josh, as Terri has said, and I tried to impart in my response,
> >>>>>>>> Microsoft has dealt with this issue for years. Bill Gates is
> >>>>>>>> left-handed. An example is Microsoft can set this up for $50,000
> >>>>>>>> investment for research, development and adjustments on its
current
> >>>>>>>> programs and operating systems.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The other software companies around the world would need to spend
> >>>>>>>> millions or billions of dollars to revamp/rewrite their software
to
> >>>>>>>> comply.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Guess what the prudent approach is Microsoft has chosen to take
> >>>>>>>> until the Longhorn timeframe?
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Chris H.
> >>>>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> >>>>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> >>>>>>>> Associate Expert
> >>>>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>> news:%23IZK4$LVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> >>>>>>>>> In Internet Explorer, click the View Menu -> Encoding -> Right
to
> >>>>>>>>> Left Document.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It messes up the way some things look unfortunately, and it has
to
> >>>>>>>>> be set for each page. Web designers can apply this to individual
> >>>>>>>>> DIV's too which Spencer Goad has done on his web site
> >>>>>>>>> (www.tabletpcbuzz.com) so if you wanna check that out, go into
the
> >>>>>>>>> profile after you've become a member and change your handedness
to
> >>>>>>>>> left handed.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So the ability is technically there. It's just a matter of
> >>>>>>>>> changing the base controls. I can't forsee any major impact this
> >>>>>>>>> would have on existing applications so if it's a very necessary
> >>>>>>>>> feature, MS should be able to easily implement it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Josh Einstein
> >>>>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>