This discussion was significant so I pulled it out of the thread...
I am posting my reply to stephans post.. under this reply, you will see what
was said before by stephan and another guy.
Stephan gives the technical background on what is going on with vista and
its need for powerful cards.

I call this a conspiracy theory, because it is only a huch.. you are free to
take it into consideration, or throw it in the trash.

--------------
My post.
-----

Stephan, I have read many people saying the same things....(that aero could
be done with far less powerful display adaptors)
That is why I believe that MS did this on purpose.

Can you imagine, the increase in sales for NVIDIA and ATI?

Do you think MS is doing such radical changes in vista if tons of money was
not deeply involved?

You see, there is a hidden truth here.. and the truth is that there is a
battle to keep
the MS monopoly as stable as possible. MS helps ATI and NVIDIA to boost
their sales,
and ATI and NVIDIA make sure they do not release their drivers to the Open
Source community.
There is a whole battle about this.. if you look around you will see it.
Linux without the proper
drivers is stuck on crappy and unstable graphic display drivers. Although
XGL looks neat,
there is a huge problem, since although many cards are capable of doing such
effects,
if you dont have the correct driver then things crash or dont work at all.
Lack of drivers is the number 1 problem of Linux. The linux community needs
to find a solution for this so bad,
that it has offered to provide free services to the companies to help write
driver code for linux.
In other words ATI who will be making billions of dollars, will also get
free linux driver programmers!
However even though the open source community will be offering this, you
will see that they will be totally ignored!
This is not because they are truly ignoring them.. it is because of the
ATI-NVIDIA-MS alliance!

Can you understand the amounts of money that are involved?

The same conspiracy is going on, on all aspects of hardware. MS makes sure
the next OS
will be bloated so much that you need a new generation computer for it to
work properly on.
This bloat is by design, since it is very possible to have compact and
efficient applications and whole OS's that
could run on a fraction of the resources windows vista needs.

This forces more people to take money out of their pockets and into the
vendors wallets.
By MS helping companies sell more new computers, they get in return full
support of PRE-INSTALLING
windows on their machines. Its not easy to get a linux machine or a pc
without an OS installed.
Sure you can if you look around, but most buy computers like they buy DVD
players.
They have no technical knowledge.. they go to a store and buy whatever
catches their eye and have the money
to pay for.

Now after me taking the time to explain the background of things, you will
understand that behind my claims
there is a logic and insight on whats going on. I just dont explain
everything in each post, because if I did,
I would be writing books here... lol I am also not saying if all this is all
negative.. I can assure you that
there is a positive aspect to what is going on. But knowing this and
accepting it, is different from not knowing the truth.

However, because your post was serious enough, I took the extra time to
write this.

This hunch I have may not be totally correct, other things may be into play
that I cannot know...
however it seems to fit perfectly whats going on, and the trends we see
around us.

---------------------------------
Prior posts
-----

Charlie Wilkes wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:45:22 +0200, Stephan Rose wrote:[color=green]
>>[/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> Gimme a friggin beak...the requirements *are* inflated. As to the
>> reasons *why* MS inflated them...I can't comment on that.
>>[/color]
> What do you suppose Microsoft did to make Vista so demanding of hardware
> resources? Did they do it on purpose, or did it just happen because of
> sloppiness?[/color]

Well I was mostly referring to Aero, not Vista as a whole. As far as Aero
goes, my take on it is this.

With the release of DirectX10, MS is eliminating the fixed function pipeline
(something I do not like at all). All prior versions of DirectX have had
this. The FFP basically exists to allow someone to render geometry without
the need of pixel and vertex shaders. This still exists from the days when
pixel / vertex shaders didn't exist.

The FFP though has limitations. Many of todays effects used in games are not
possible with it as they are too dynamic. However, there still are *many*
things the FFP is perfectly capable and fine for using, UI's being the #1
thing games use it for.

Now Aero uses DX9, not DX10. So why am I bringing that up? Easy. I suspect
that MS implemented Aero entirely using Pixel and Vertex shaders for future
DX10 compatibility. So my guess is, they are using either PS2.0 or even 3.0
to implement Aero.

This causes lower end or older cards that don't have the appropriate level
of Pixel Shader support to not be able to use Aero even though the video
card itself would be perfectly capable of doing so via the FFP.

Pixel shaders though are beyond overkill for the simple alpha blending Aero
does. The identical effect can easily achieved via setting the appropriate
texture blending flags in the FFP.

Now MS could have done the same thing games do. Games will usually provide a
FFP fallback when appropriate pixel shader support is lacking. That may
result in reduced visual quality *if* the same effect cannot be achieved
via the FFP, but everything is still usable. In Aero's case though there
wouldn't be a visual difference even as all we are talking about here is
simple alpha blending. A legacy TNT2 can do that...

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

---

The original thread was " Windows Vista Aero VS Linux Ubuntu beryl"

kirk jim wrote:[color=blue]
>
> You see, there is a hidden truth here.. and the truth is that there is a
> battle to keep
> the MS monopoly as stable as possible. MS helps ATI and NVIDIA to boost
> their sales,
> and ATI and NVIDIA make sure they do not release their drivers to the Open
> Source community.[/color]

Neither nVidia nor ATI need to release their driver to the open source
community...their proprietary drivers work perfectly fine. Latest version
of ubuntu (feisty) can even install them automatically without the need for
Automatix or any command line calls. Don't even have to go to the vendors
website to get the driver.
[color=blue]
> There is a whole battle about this.. if you look around you will see it.
> Linux without the proper
> drivers is stuck on crappy and unstable graphic display drivers. Although
> XGL looks neat,
> there is a huge problem, since although many cards are capable of doing
> such effects,
> if you dont have the correct driver then things crash or dont work at all.[/color]

Lucky for Linux though that both ATI and nVidia are fully supported then
right? =)
[color=blue]
> Lack of drivers is the number 1 problem of Linux. The linux community
> needs to find a solution for this so bad,
> that it has offered to provide free services to the companies to help
> write driver code for linux.[/color]

While they have offered these services, and I hope that succeeds, I've yet
to find a single system, and I have plenty, that doesn't have adequate
driver support. Even my laptop which has a broadcom chipset which is about
as bad as it gets in the wireless linux world as far as support goes, works
perfectly fine. I did have to do some minor research though to get it
working correctly, I will admit. I need to test this on the new release and
see if it works out of the box now. It just might....

I'll agree that some made in china 9.95 cheapo webcam with obscure buggy
drivers that don't even work right under windows may not be supported by
linux...but I honestly couldn't care less about that.
[color=blue]
> In other words ATI who will be making billions of dollars, will also get
> free linux driver programmers!
> However even though the open source community will be offering this, you
> will see that they will be totally ignored![/color]

Seeing how both companies already release fully functional and working
drivers, why do they need open source support? Oh btw, the community
support proposal is not limited to open source. They are also offering to
do proprietary development complete with fully legal non-disclosure
agreements.
[color=blue]
> This is not because they are truly ignoring them.. it is because of the
> ATI-NVIDIA-MS alliance!
>
> Can you understand the amounts of money that are involved?
>
> The same conspiracy is going on, on all aspects of hardware. MS makes sure
> the next OS
> will be bloated so much that you need a new generation computer for it to
> work properly on.
> This bloat is by design, since it is very possible to have compact and
> efficient applications and whole OS's that
> could run on a fraction of the resources windows vista needs.
>
> This forces more people to take money out of their pockets and into the
> vendors wallets.
> By MS helping companies sell more new computers, they get in return full
> support of PRE-INSTALLING
> windows on their machines. Its not easy to get a linux machine or a pc
> without an OS installed.[/color]

Sure it is...I haven't bought a PC with a pre-installed OS in almost 10
years. I can see why the major chains don't offer systems with no OS as
some people would inevitably buy them trying to save a few bucks and call
tech support asking why windows doesn't come up when they turn it on...

Any local system builder though will normally always build a system with no
operating system preinstalled, or with the OS of your choice pre-installed.
Plenty of those to go around.
[color=blue]
> Sure you can if you look around, but most buy computers like they buy DVD
> players.
> They have no technical knowledge.. they go to a store and buy whatever
> catches their eye and have the money
> to pay for.[/color]

Precisely, now what do you think would happen if a person like that bought a
PC with no OS installed? You really think that person would be capable of
installing one?


--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出す日なんてないのは
君のこと忘れたときがないから

I have had problems with an NVIDIA Ti 4200 with NVIDIA proprietary drivers..
I needed XGL and Multimonitor support.
do you have a solution for this?

The latest version of ubuntu is not released yet, is it? (7). I had a beta
but I had problems with it,
since it would not let me install for some strange reason. I used automatix
to load the propriety drivers and created HAVOC!!!

The propriety driver problem is real. In fact if you look around its a big
problem with the proprietary drives since they are not up to date and create
lots of problems.. especially the NVIDIA ones!




"Stephan Rose" <kermos@nospam.somrek.net> wrote in message
news:15idnQDl95A87IbbRVnyvwA@giganews.com...[color=blue]
> kirk jim wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> You see, there is a hidden truth here.. and the truth is that there is a
>> battle to keep
>> the MS monopoly as stable as possible. MS helps ATI and NVIDIA to boost
>> their sales,
>> and ATI and NVIDIA make sure they do not release their drivers to the
>> Open
>> Source community.[/color]
>
> Neither nVidia nor ATI need to release their driver to the open source
> community...their proprietary drivers work perfectly fine. Latest version
> of ubuntu (feisty) can even install them automatically without the need
> for
> Automatix or any command line calls. Don't even have to go to the vendors
> website to get the driver.
>[color=green]
>> There is a whole battle about this.. if you look around you will see it.
>> Linux without the proper
>> drivers is stuck on crappy and unstable graphic display drivers. Although
>> XGL looks neat,
>> there is a huge problem, since although many cards are capable of doing
>> such effects,
>> if you dont have the correct driver then things crash or dont work at
>> all.[/color]
>
> Lucky for Linux though that both ATI and nVidia are fully supported then
> right? =)
>[color=green]
>> Lack of drivers is the number 1 problem of Linux. The linux community
>> needs to find a solution for this so bad,
>> that it has offered to provide free services to the companies to help
>> write driver code for linux.[/color]
>
> While they have offered these services, and I hope that succeeds, I've yet
> to find a single system, and I have plenty, that doesn't have adequate
> driver support. Even my laptop which has a broadcom chipset which is about
> as bad as it gets in the wireless linux world as far as support goes,
> works
> perfectly fine. I did have to do some minor research though to get it
> working correctly, I will admit. I need to test this on the new release
> and
> see if it works out of the box now. It just might....
>
> I'll agree that some made in china 9.95 cheapo webcam with obscure buggy
> drivers that don't even work right under windows may not be supported by
> linux...but I honestly couldn't care less about that.
>[color=green]
>> In other words ATI who will be making billions of dollars, will also get
>> free linux driver programmers!
>> However even though the open source community will be offering this, you
>> will see that they will be totally ignored![/color]
>
> Seeing how both companies already release fully functional and working
> drivers, why do they need open source support? Oh btw, the community
> support proposal is not limited to open source. They are also offering to
> do proprietary development complete with fully legal non-disclosure
> agreements.
>[color=green]
>> This is not because they are truly ignoring them.. it is because of the
>> ATI-NVIDIA-MS alliance!
>>
>> Can you understand the amounts of money that are involved?
>>
>> The same conspiracy is going on, on all aspects of hardware. MS makes
>> sure
>> the next OS
>> will be bloated so much that you need a new generation computer for it to
>> work properly on.
>> This bloat is by design, since it is very possible to have compact and
>> efficient applications and whole OS's that
>> could run on a fraction of the resources windows vista needs.
>>
>> This forces more people to take money out of their pockets and into the
>> vendors wallets.
>> By MS helping companies sell more new computers, they get in return full
>> support of PRE-INSTALLING
>> windows on their machines. Its not easy to get a linux machine or a pc
>> without an OS installed.[/color]
>
> Sure it is...I haven't bought a PC with a pre-installed OS in almost 10
> years. I can see why the major chains don't offer systems with no OS as
> some people would inevitably buy them trying to save a few bucks and call
> tech support asking why windows doesn't come up when they turn it on...
>
> Any local system builder though will normally always build a system with
> no
> operating system preinstalled, or with the OS of your choice
> pre-installed.
> Plenty of those to go around.
>[color=green]
>> Sure you can if you look around, but most buy computers like they buy DVD
>> players.
>> They have no technical knowledge.. they go to a store and buy whatever
>> catches their eye and have the money
>> to pay for.[/color]
>
> Precisely, now what do you think would happen if a person like that bought
> a
> PC with no OS installed? You really think that person would be capable of
> installing one?
>
>
> --
> Stephan
> 2003 Yamaha R6
>
> ????????????????
> ??????????????[/color]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:26:17 +0300, "kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote:
[color=blue]
>I have had problems with an NVIDIA Ti 4200 with NVIDIA proprietary drivers..
>I needed XGL and Multimonitor support.
>do you have a solution for this?[/color]

I am not sure but I think a card of that age may need the legacy
drivers not the latest drivers.

The problem actually isn't on the linux end. The problem is with
nVidia. They are dropping support for older video cards over time in
their latest drivers.

It's actually getting to the point where there will be 3 sets of linux
drivers needed to be maintained for automatic install by the new
release.

- Driver for the recent cards (just use latest)
- Driver for "older" cards but not legacy cards that have had their
support dropped in the latest version by nVidia.
- Driver for legacy card that doesn't yet support the older but
non-legacy cards.

*all* drivers are available from the nVidia website.

[color=blue]
>
>The latest version of ubuntu is not released yet, is it? (7). I had a beta
>but I had problems with it,
>since it would not let me install for some strange reason. I used automatix
>to load the propriety drivers and created HAVOC!!![/color]

I would not recommend using Automatix for driver install regardless of
video card. I don't think much of Automatix to be honest. The codec
thing is nice but even that is integrated into the latest ubuntu
release now. There really is no more need to use Automatix for
*anything* in the newest release.

The reason you probably were having problems with your driver though
was most likely that you were installing too new of a driver for too
old of a video card.

[color=blue]
>
>The propriety driver problem is real. In fact if you look around its a big
>problem with the proprietary drives since they are not up to date and create
>lots of problems.. especially the NVIDIA ones![/color]

nVidia drivers are absolutely no problem at all. Just install the
right version for your video card. This applies equally to windows as
it does to linux.

Something that you are forgetting conveniently is that the high end cards
have been around for some while, most especially for gamers who want maximum
realistic detail.. Vista is taking advantage of what is already out there..
the majority of gaming machines will have no problems running Vista
anything..

It is only the lower end machines that will suffer, and guess what? The same
could be said for XP back in 2001/02.. XP ran like a dog on a PIII, 128mb,
6gb HDD, 8mb video machine even with all of the eye candy turned off.. How
many people threatened or wanted to go back to Win 98/ME because Win 98 was
the best OS ever.. lol..

So now, all of a sudden, XP is the greatest and Vista is the POS.. same old
same old..

Games are what has driven the PC to where it is now.. for word processing,
we could all get by with a 386DX40 and 2mb Matrox Mystique (itself billed as
a gaming card way back when)..
"kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
news:%23SM8JT1eHHA.284@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> This discussion was significant so I pulled it out of the thread...
> I am posting my reply to stephans post.. under this reply, you will see
> what was said before by stephan and another guy.
> Stephan gives the technical background on what is going on with vista and
> its need for powerful cards.
>
> I call this a conspiracy theory, because it is only a huch.. you are free
> to take it into consideration, or throw it in the trash.
>
> --------------
> My post.
> -----
>
> Stephan, I have read many people saying the same things....(that aero
> could be done with far less powerful display adaptors)
> That is why I believe that MS did this on purpose.
>
> Can you imagine, the increase in sales for NVIDIA and ATI?
>
> Do you think MS is doing such radical changes in vista if tons of money
> was not deeply involved?
>
> You see, there is a hidden truth here.. and the truth is that there is a
> battle to keep
> the MS monopoly as stable as possible. MS helps ATI and NVIDIA to boost
> their sales,
> and ATI and NVIDIA make sure they do not release their drivers to the Open
> Source community.
> There is a whole battle about this.. if you look around you will see it.
> Linux without the proper
> drivers is stuck on crappy and unstable graphic display drivers. Although
> XGL looks neat,
> there is a huge problem, since although many cards are capable of doing
> such effects,
> if you dont have the correct driver then things crash or dont work at all.
> Lack of drivers is the number 1 problem of Linux. The linux community
> needs to find a solution for this so bad,
> that it has offered to provide free services to the companies to help
> write driver code for linux.
> In other words ATI who will be making billions of dollars, will also get
> free linux driver programmers!
> However even though the open source community will be offering this, you
> will see that they will be totally ignored!
> This is not because they are truly ignoring them.. it is because of the
> ATI-NVIDIA-MS alliance!
>
> Can you understand the amounts of money that are involved?
>
> The same conspiracy is going on, on all aspects of hardware. MS makes sure
> the next OS
> will be bloated so much that you need a new generation computer for it to
> work properly on.
> This bloat is by design, since it is very possible to have compact and
> efficient applications and whole OS's that
> could run on a fraction of the resources windows vista needs.
>
> This forces more people to take money out of their pockets and into the
> vendors wallets.
> By MS helping companies sell more new computers, they get in return full
> support of PRE-INSTALLING
> windows on their machines. Its not easy to get a linux machine or a pc
> without an OS installed.
> Sure you can if you look around, but most buy computers like they buy DVD
> players.
> They have no technical knowledge.. they go to a store and buy whatever
> catches their eye and have the money
> to pay for.
>
> Now after me taking the time to explain the background of things, you will
> understand that behind my claims
> there is a logic and insight on whats going on. I just dont explain
> everything in each post, because if I did,
> I would be writing books here... lol I am also not saying if all this is
> all negative.. I can assure you that
> there is a positive aspect to what is going on. But knowing this and
> accepting it, is different from not knowing the truth.
>
> However, because your post was serious enough, I took the extra time to
> write this.
>
> This hunch I have may not be totally correct, other things may be into
> play that I cannot know...
> however it seems to fit perfectly whats going on, and the trends we see
> around us.
>
> ---------------------------------
> Prior posts
> -----
>
> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:45:22 +0200, Stephan Rose wrote:[color=darkred]
>>>[/color][/color]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>
>>> Gimme a friggin beak...the requirements *are* inflated. As to the
>>> reasons *why* MS inflated them...I can't comment on that.
>>>[/color]
>> What do you suppose Microsoft did to make Vista so demanding of hardware
>> resources? Did they do it on purpose, or did it just happen because of
>> sloppiness?[/color]
>
> Well I was mostly referring to Aero, not Vista as a whole. As far as Aero
> goes, my take on it is this.
>
> With the release of DirectX10, MS is eliminating the fixed function
> pipeline
> (something I do not like at all). All prior versions of DirectX have had
> this. The FFP basically exists to allow someone to render geometry without
> the need of pixel and vertex shaders. This still exists from the days when
> pixel / vertex shaders didn't exist.
>
> The FFP though has limitations. Many of todays effects used in games are
> not
> possible with it as they are too dynamic. However, there still are *many*
> things the FFP is perfectly capable and fine for using, UI's being the #1
> thing games use it for.
>
> Now Aero uses DX9, not DX10. So why am I bringing that up? Easy. I suspect
> that MS implemented Aero entirely using Pixel and Vertex shaders for
> future
> DX10 compatibility. So my guess is, they are using either PS2.0 or even
> 3.0
> to implement Aero.
>
> This causes lower end or older cards that don't have the appropriate level
> of Pixel Shader support to not be able to use Aero even though the video
> card itself would be perfectly capable of doing so via the FFP.
>
> Pixel shaders though are beyond overkill for the simple alpha blending
> Aero
> does. The identical effect can easily achieved via setting the appropriate
> texture blending flags in the FFP.
>
> Now MS could have done the same thing games do. Games will usually provide
> a
> FFP fallback when appropriate pixel shader support is lacking. That may
> result in reduced visual quality *if* the same effect cannot be achieved
> via the FFP, but everything is still usable. In Aero's case though there
> wouldn't be a visual difference even as all we are talking about here is
> simple alpha blending. A legacy TNT2 can do that...
>
> --
> Stephan
> 2003 Yamaha R6
>
> ---
>
> The original thread was " Windows Vista Aero VS Linux Ubuntu beryl"
>
>
>
>
>
>[/color]

--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
[url]http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/[/url]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:58:08 -0400, "Mike Hall - MS MVP"
<mikehall@mvps.org> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Something that you are forgetting conveniently is that the high end cards
>have been around for some while, most especially for gamers who want maximum
>realistic detail.. Vista is taking advantage of what is already out there..
>the majority of gaming machines will have no problems running Vista
>anything..
>
>It is only the lower end machines that will suffer, and guess what? The same
>could be said for XP back in 2001/02.. XP ran like a dog on a PIII, 128mb,
>6gb HDD, 8mb video machine even with all of the eye candy turned off.. How
>many people threatened or wanted to go back to Win 98/ME because Win 98 was
>the best OS ever.. lol..
>
>So now, all of a sudden, XP is the greatest and Vista is the POS.. same old
>same old..[/color]

There's some truth for that but still. The requirements are
artificially high.

Sticking with the gaming example, wouldn't you yourself find it odd if
you had a computer that was perfectly capable of running a game far
more demanding than Aero but yet can't run Aero?

--
Stephan

Hello...my replies are inline

"Mike Hall - MS MVP" <mikehall@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:OPcBv$2eHHA.1252@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> Something that you are forgetting conveniently is that the high end cards
> have been around for some while, most especially for gamers who want
> maximum realistic detail.. Vista is taking advantage of what is already
> out there.. the majority of gaming machines will have no problems running
> Vista anything..[/color]

I am not forgetting anything. The high end card existed for sure.. all the
problem was
how to sell more of those to more people. Gamers are a small market. By
needing a high end card for windows itself, it will automatically boost the
sales. Vista could already take advantage of what is already INSTALLED on
machines, because like XGL it could display those effects on older machines.
[color=blue]
> It is only the lower end machines that will suffer, and guess what? The
> same could be said for XP back in 2001/02.. XP ran like a dog on a PIII,
> 128mb, 6gb HDD, 8mb video machine even with all of the eye candy turned
> off.. How many people threatened or wanted to go back to Win 98/ME because
> Win 98 was the best OS ever.. lol..[/color]

If you read my post, I say that this was always a strategy of MS, to bloat
with no real reason.
You could have far more efficient OS's that take up a fraction of the disk
and ram windows needs.
Its all about design.. and the care they put into it. Windows 98 was a very
unstable and buggy OS because of its kernel.
WinXP was stable as a rock, and in managed memory far better. It was based
on a good OS that was not originally meant
for the consumers. If it wasnt for Linux and Macs being stable as rocks and
making fun of windows 98 I am not sure
if MS would ever make the plunge, and transform their business kernel into
one to be used by everyone.
[color=blue]
>
> So now, all of a sudden, XP is the greatest and Vista is the POS.. same
> old same old..
>
> Games are what has driven the PC to where it is now.. for word processing,
> we could all get by with a 386DX40 and 2mb Matrox Mystique (itself billed
> as a gaming card way back when)..[/color]

That true at some extent. It is not only games now... now we have vista :-)

again I am not saying if it is bad or good... this artificial push will
force people to get new computers
and demand for more CPU power. This artificial push will make 100 core
machines a reality. When the computer is not working on a vista task.. it
will be free to do something useful
like rendering an image or converting a video file.
It is a huge difference though to know whats going on and accepting it, and
it is different to accept anything
they give you without understanding what is happening.
[color=blue]
> "kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
> news:%23SM8JT1eHHA.284@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> This discussion was significant so I pulled it out of the thread...
>> I am posting my reply to stephans post.. under this reply, you will see
>> what was said before by stephan and another guy.
>> Stephan gives the technical background on what is going on with vista and
>> its need for powerful cards.
>>
>> I call this a conspiracy theory, because it is only a huch.. you are free
>> to take it into consideration, or throw it in the trash.
>>
>> --------------
>> My post.
>> -----
>>
>> Stephan, I have read many people saying the same things....(that aero
>> could be done with far less powerful display adaptors)
>> That is why I believe that MS did this on purpose.
>>
>> Can you imagine, the increase in sales for NVIDIA and ATI?
>>
>> Do you think MS is doing such radical changes in vista if tons of money
>> was not deeply involved?
>>
>> You see, there is a hidden truth here.. and the truth is that there is a
>> battle to keep
>> the MS monopoly as stable as possible. MS helps ATI and NVIDIA to boost
>> their sales,
>> and ATI and NVIDIA make sure they do not release their drivers to the
>> Open Source community.
>> There is a whole battle about this.. if you look around you will see it.
>> Linux without the proper
>> drivers is stuck on crappy and unstable graphic display drivers. Although
>> XGL looks neat,
>> there is a huge problem, since although many cards are capable of doing
>> such effects,
>> if you dont have the correct driver then things crash or dont work at
>> all.
>> Lack of drivers is the number 1 problem of Linux. The linux community
>> needs to find a solution for this so bad,
>> that it has offered to provide free services to the companies to help
>> write driver code for linux.
>> In other words ATI who will be making billions of dollars, will also get
>> free linux driver programmers!
>> However even though the open source community will be offering this, you
>> will see that they will be totally ignored!
>> This is not because they are truly ignoring them.. it is because of the
>> ATI-NVIDIA-MS alliance!
>>
>> Can you understand the amounts of money that are involved?
>>
>> The same conspiracy is going on, on all aspects of hardware. MS makes
>> sure the next OS
>> will be bloated so much that you need a new generation computer for it to
>> work properly on.
>> This bloat is by design, since it is very possible to have compact and
>> efficient applications and whole OS's that
>> could run on a fraction of the resources windows vista needs.
>>
>> This forces more people to take money out of their pockets and into the
>> vendors wallets.
>> By MS helping companies sell more new computers, they get in return full
>> support of PRE-INSTALLING
>> windows on their machines. Its not easy to get a linux machine or a pc
>> without an OS installed.
>> Sure you can if you look around, but most buy computers like they buy DVD
>> players.
>> They have no technical knowledge.. they go to a store and buy whatever
>> catches their eye and have the money
>> to pay for.
>>
>> Now after me taking the time to explain the background of things, you
>> will understand that behind my claims
>> there is a logic and insight on whats going on. I just dont explain
>> everything in each post, because if I did,
>> I would be writing books here... lol I am also not saying if all this is
>> all negative.. I can assure you that
>> there is a positive aspect to what is going on. But knowing this and
>> accepting it, is different from not knowing the truth.
>>
>> However, because your post was serious enough, I took the extra time to
>> write this.
>>
>> This hunch I have may not be totally correct, other things may be into
>> play that I cannot know...
>> however it seems to fit perfectly whats going on, and the trends we see
>> around us.
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Prior posts
>> -----
>>
>> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:45:22 +0200, Stephan Rose wrote:
>>>>[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>>>>
>>>> Gimme a friggin beak...the requirements *are* inflated. As to the
>>>> reasons *why* MS inflated them...I can't comment on that.
>>>>
>>> What do you suppose Microsoft did to make Vista so demanding of hardware
>>> resources? Did they do it on purpose, or did it just happen because of
>>> sloppiness?[/color]
>>
>> Well I was mostly referring to Aero, not Vista as a whole. As far as Aero
>> goes, my take on it is this.
>>
>> With the release of DirectX10, MS is eliminating the fixed function
>> pipeline
>> (something I do not like at all). All prior versions of DirectX have had
>> this. The FFP basically exists to allow someone to render geometry
>> without
>> the need of pixel and vertex shaders. This still exists from the days
>> when
>> pixel / vertex shaders didn't exist.
>>
>> The FFP though has limitations. Many of todays effects used in games are
>> not
>> possible with it as they are too dynamic. However, there still are *many*
>> things the FFP is perfectly capable and fine for using, UI's being the #1
>> thing games use it for.
>>
>> Now Aero uses DX9, not DX10. So why am I bringing that up? Easy. I
>> suspect
>> that MS implemented Aero entirely using Pixel and Vertex shaders for
>> future
>> DX10 compatibility. So my guess is, they are using either PS2.0 or even
>> 3.0
>> to implement Aero.
>>
>> This causes lower end or older cards that don't have the appropriate
>> level
>> of Pixel Shader support to not be able to use Aero even though the video
>> card itself would be perfectly capable of doing so via the FFP.
>>
>> Pixel shaders though are beyond overkill for the simple alpha blending
>> Aero
>> does. The identical effect can easily achieved via setting the
>> appropriate
>> texture blending flags in the FFP.
>>
>> Now MS could have done the same thing games do. Games will usually
>> provide a
>> FFP fallback when appropriate pixel shader support is lacking. That may
>> result in reduced visual quality *if* the same effect cannot be achieved
>> via the FFP, but everything is still usable. In Aero's case though there
>> wouldn't be a visual difference even as all we are talking about here is
>> simple alpha blending. A legacy TNT2 can do that...
>>
>> --
>> Stephan
>> 2003 Yamaha R6
>>
>> ---
>>
>> The original thread was " Windows Vista Aero VS Linux Ubuntu beryl"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[/color]
>
> --
>
>
> Mike Hall
> MS MVP Windows Shell/User
> [url]http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/[/url]
>
>
>[/color]

yourself find it odd if[color=blue]
> you had a computer that was perfectly capable of running a game far
> more demanding than Aero but yet can't run Aero?
>[/color]
That is exactly the case.. on a pc of mine, I have an ati 9000 card with 128
mb of ram.

That one can play lots of 3d games.. its not the best in the world now,
no... but it works very well with beryl
no delay at all...

Other people are playing 3d games on even lower power display adaptors....
not all games
are super demanding, because they want to be able to sell more copies to
many people.

By the way.... guess who else is going to profit from this aero move of MS?
The GAMING creators. That industry makes more money than all of hollywood
combined.

Now with vista they will be able to create blockbuster games and they will
have a huge market to sell them to.
since vista has made everyone get a super duper display adaptor just for
aero! lol




"Stephan Rose" <kermos.remove.no.spam@no.somrek.spam.net> wrote in message
news:m15n135jr36qjbflt1i9d7vqd12kd0uunv@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:58:08 -0400, "Mike Hall - MS MVP"
> <mikehall@mvps.org> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Something that you are forgetting conveniently is that the high end cards
>>have been around for some while, most especially for gamers who want
>>maximum
>>realistic detail.. Vista is taking advantage of what is already out
>>there..
>>the majority of gaming machines will have no problems running Vista
>>anything..
>>
>>It is only the lower end machines that will suffer, and guess what? The
>>same
>>could be said for XP back in 2001/02.. XP ran like a dog on a PIII, 128mb,
>>6gb HDD, 8mb video machine even with all of the eye candy turned off.. How
>>many people threatened or wanted to go back to Win 98/ME because Win 98
>>was
>>the best OS ever.. lol..
>>
>>So now, all of a sudden, XP is the greatest and Vista is the POS.. same
>>old
>>same old..[/color]
>
> There's some truth for that but still. The requirements are
> artificially high.
>
> Sticking with the gaming example, wouldn't you yourself find it odd if
> you had a computer that was perfectly capable of running a game far
> more demanding than Aero but yet can't run Aero?
>
> --
> Stephan[/color]

"Stephan Rose" <kermos.remove.no.spam@no.somrek.spam.net> wrote in message
news:m15n135jr36qjbflt1i9d7vqd12kd0uunv@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:58:08 -0400, "Mike Hall - MS MVP"
> <mikehall@mvps.org> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Something that you are forgetting conveniently is that the high end cards
>>have been around for some while, most especially for gamers who want
>>maximum
>>realistic detail.. Vista is taking advantage of what is already out
>>there..
>>the majority of gaming machines will have no problems running Vista
>>anything..
>>
>>It is only the lower end machines that will suffer, and guess what? The
>>same
>>could be said for XP back in 2001/02.. XP ran like a dog on a PIII, 128mb,
>>6gb HDD, 8mb video machine even with all of the eye candy turned off.. How
>>many people threatened or wanted to go back to Win 98/ME because Win 98
>>was
>>the best OS ever.. lol..
>>
>>So now, all of a sudden, XP is the greatest and Vista is the POS.. same
>>old
>>same old..[/color]
>
> There's some truth for that but still. The requirements are
> artificially high.
>
> Sticking with the gaming example, wouldn't you yourself find it odd if
> you had a computer that was perfectly capable of running a game far
> more demanding than Aero but yet can't run Aero?
>
> --
> Stephan[/color]

Which is true of every machine with integrated Intel GMA900 graphics (915).
They're capable chips that could run Aero if Intel CHOSE to write the
driver. Not technically impossible. Marketing impossible.

kirk jim wrote:
[color=blue]
> yourself find it odd if[color=green]
>> you had a computer that was perfectly capable of running a game far
>> more demanding than Aero but yet can't run Aero?
>>[/color]
> That is exactly the case.. on a pc of mine, I have an ati 9000 card with
> 128 mb of ram.
>
> That one can play lots of 3d games.. its not the best in the world now,
> no... but it works very well with beryl
> no delay at all...
>
> Other people are playing 3d games on even lower power display adaptors....
> not all games
> are super demanding, because they want to be able to sell more copies to
> many people.
>
> By the way.... guess who else is going to profit from this aero move of
> MS? The GAMING creators. That industry makes more money than all of
> hollywood combined.
>
> Now with vista they will be able to create blockbuster games and they will
> have a huge market to sell them to.
> since vista has made everyone get a super duper display adaptor just for
> aero! lol[/color]

You know, if you'd back up what you write with facts or at the very least
logical reasoning, maybe people would take you seriously...

The Gaming studios don't have much, if anything, to benefit from Vista.
Quite the contrary. They now have to deal with the problem that people with
DX10 cards will want DX10 features, but they can't write games using DX10
without dumping their customers using DX9 for a very long time to come. So
they either have to deal with DX10 users whining about lacking DX10 content
or DX9 users whining about the game not running on their hardware. Neither
is fun to deal with and either can cost revenue in various different ways.
Implementing both APIs in a game engine, while of course possible, isn't
really all that feasible due to the radical difference between the two APIs
and at the very minimum greatly lengthens the development cycle, testing
cycle, possibility for bugs, development cost...which in turn raises the
cost for the end product. None are desirable.

So really, developers have a problem on their hands, not an advantage. I am
kind of hoping that it will get some developers to consider OpenGL as
OpenGL will allow both DX9 and DX10 level features without the API mess.

Also, developers have been writing games to target the high-end platforms
for many years. In many cases, developers will even write the games in such
a way that on the day on the release that not even really extreme gaming
rigs can play them with all settings enabled and maxed out. Games with long
lifetimes such as MMORPGs do this a lot. Vanguard will bring my system to
its knees if I max everything out. Just unlike Aero in vista, game engines
usually have fallbacks for lower end hardware that still allows the game to
play at reduced visual quality. This enables games to target a broad set of
hardware ranging from future gaming rigs yet to be built down to mom's
laptop with an integrated video card.

But no...nothing about Vista or Aero or its hardware requirements is going
to make developers target higher performance video cards. They already
target the top of the line cards and have been doing so since the first
game that was ever written.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出す日なんてないのは
君のこと忘れたときがないから

Jim

Re video cards, the new breed are far more capable than anything before
them.. I was staggered by the detail I could see in Fable when I switched
from onboard video to an nVidia 6600 256mb card (running in XP, btw).. at
the time of purchase, there were $1000 cards out there, SLI twins, all
kinds.. mine was a relative cheapie at $160cdn.. Games are a huge market,
and set the standards for video reproduction.. if anything drives video
cards on to bigger and better, games are #1..

Fable of course is an MS game, but there are many more out there that are
not.. World of Warcraft has 8 million online players, to the point where an
WoW account has more worth if hacked than a credit card does.. isn't that
just amazing?

I have also been amazed that people upgrade their systems when there really
is no need, or actually have bought an ATI card because the present crop of
ATI drivers support Vista better than nVidia.. there is no shortage of
people out there with almost unlimited funds re the buying of computer
parts.. let us also not forget the people who just have to get the very best
even thought they do nothing much with what they have bought.. Gaming
parties attract people who have spent hours and $$$$$ improving their
systems, with huge water cooling units perched on top to give them a
competitive edge.. and all way before Nov 17 2006..

So now MS have an OS than can also take benefit from the new breed of
hardware.. how can you say that MS are pushing the limits forward, when they
have so obviously come from behind?

Photo editing and music have dictated ever larger hard drives.. that and the
saving of game levels played.. again, MS are not pushing the limits
forward..

All of the companies have to keep releasing newer bigger stuff or they would
not be in business and there would be no updates or patches for anything..
the same applies to ALL manufacturing, be it computers, cars, whatever..






"kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
news:eVaJnf3eHHA.4560@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> Hello...my replies are inline
>
> "Mike Hall - MS MVP" <mikehall@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:OPcBv$2eHHA.1252@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> Something that you are forgetting conveniently is that the high end cards
>> have been around for some while, most especially for gamers who want
>> maximum realistic detail.. Vista is taking advantage of what is already
>> out there.. the majority of gaming machines will have no problems running
>> Vista anything..[/color]
>
> I am not forgetting anything. The high end card existed for sure.. all the
> problem was
> how to sell more of those to more people. Gamers are a small market. By
> needing a high end card for windows itself, it will automatically boost
> the sales. Vista could already take advantage of what is already INSTALLED
> on machines, because like XGL it could display those effects on older
> machines.
>[color=green]
>> It is only the lower end machines that will suffer, and guess what? The
>> same could be said for XP back in 2001/02.. XP ran like a dog on a PIII,
>> 128mb, 6gb HDD, 8mb video machine even with all of the eye candy turned
>> off.. How many people threatened or wanted to go back to Win 98/ME
>> because Win 98 was the best OS ever.. lol..[/color]
>
> If you read my post, I say that this was always a strategy of MS, to bloat
> with no real reason.
> You could have far more efficient OS's that take up a fraction of the disk
> and ram windows needs.
> Its all about design.. and the care they put into it. Windows 98 was a
> very unstable and buggy OS because of its kernel.
> WinXP was stable as a rock, and in managed memory far better. It was based
> on a good OS that was not originally meant
> for the consumers. If it wasnt for Linux and Macs being stable as rocks
> and making fun of windows 98 I am not sure
> if MS would ever make the plunge, and transform their business kernel into
> one to be used by everyone.
>[color=green]
>>
>> So now, all of a sudden, XP is the greatest and Vista is the POS.. same
>> old same old..
>>
>> Games are what has driven the PC to where it is now.. for word
>> processing, we could all get by with a 386DX40 and 2mb Matrox Mystique
>> (itself billed as a gaming card way back when)..[/color]
>
> That true at some extent. It is not only games now... now we have vista
> :-)
>
> again I am not saying if it is bad or good... this artificial push will
> force people to get new computers
> and demand for more CPU power. This artificial push will make 100 core
> machines a reality. When the computer is not working on a vista task.. it
> will be free to do something useful
> like rendering an image or converting a video file.
> It is a huge difference though to know whats going on and accepting it,
> and it is different to accept anything
> they give you without understanding what is happening.
>[color=green]
>> "kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
>> news:%23SM8JT1eHHA.284@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>>> This discussion was significant so I pulled it out of the thread...
>>> I am posting my reply to stephans post.. under this reply, you will see
>>> what was said before by stephan and another guy.
>>> Stephan gives the technical background on what is going on with vista
>>> and its need for powerful cards.
>>>
>>> I call this a conspiracy theory, because it is only a huch.. you are
>>> free to take it into consideration, or throw it in the trash.
>>>
>>> --------------
>>> My post.
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Stephan, I have read many people saying the same things....(that aero
>>> could be done with far less powerful display adaptors)
>>> That is why I believe that MS did this on purpose.
>>>
>>> Can you imagine, the increase in sales for NVIDIA and ATI?
>>>
>>> Do you think MS is doing such radical changes in vista if tons of money
>>> was not deeply involved?
>>>
>>> You see, there is a hidden truth here.. and the truth is that there is a
>>> battle to keep
>>> the MS monopoly as stable as possible. MS helps ATI and NVIDIA to boost
>>> their sales,
>>> and ATI and NVIDIA make sure they do not release their drivers to the
>>> Open Source community.
>>> There is a whole battle about this.. if you look around you will see it.
>>> Linux without the proper
>>> drivers is stuck on crappy and unstable graphic display drivers.
>>> Although XGL looks neat,
>>> there is a huge problem, since although many cards are capable of doing
>>> such effects,
>>> if you dont have the correct driver then things crash or dont work at
>>> all.
>>> Lack of drivers is the number 1 problem of Linux. The linux community
>>> needs to find a solution for this so bad,
>>> that it has offered to provide free services to the companies to help
>>> write driver code for linux.
>>> In other words ATI who will be making billions of dollars, will also get
>>> free linux driver programmers!
>>> However even though the open source community will be offering this, you
>>> will see that they will be totally ignored!
>>> This is not because they are truly ignoring them.. it is because of the
>>> ATI-NVIDIA-MS alliance!
>>>
>>> Can you understand the amounts of money that are involved?
>>>
>>> The same conspiracy is going on, on all aspects of hardware. MS makes
>>> sure the next OS
>>> will be bloated so much that you need a new generation computer for it
>>> to work properly on.
>>> This bloat is by design, since it is very possible to have compact and
>>> efficient applications and whole OS's that
>>> could run on a fraction of the resources windows vista needs.
>>>
>>> This forces more people to take money out of their pockets and into the
>>> vendors wallets.
>>> By MS helping companies sell more new computers, they get in return full
>>> support of PRE-INSTALLING
>>> windows on their machines. Its not easy to get a linux machine or a pc
>>> without an OS installed.
>>> Sure you can if you look around, but most buy computers like they buy
>>> DVD players.
>>> They have no technical knowledge.. they go to a store and buy whatever
>>> catches their eye and have the money
>>> to pay for.
>>>
>>> Now after me taking the time to explain the background of things, you
>>> will understand that behind my claims
>>> there is a logic and insight on whats going on. I just dont explain
>>> everything in each post, because if I did,
>>> I would be writing books here... lol I am also not saying if all this is
>>> all negative.. I can assure you that
>>> there is a positive aspect to what is going on. But knowing this and
>>> accepting it, is different from not knowing the truth.
>>>
>>> However, because your post was serious enough, I took the extra time to
>>> write this.
>>>
>>> This hunch I have may not be totally correct, other things may be into
>>> play that I cannot know...
>>> however it seems to fit perfectly whats going on, and the trends we see
>>> around us.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Prior posts
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:45:22 +0200, Stephan Rose wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gimme a friggin beak...the requirements *are* inflated. As to the
>>>>> reasons *why* MS inflated them...I can't comment on that.
>>>>>
>>>> What do you suppose Microsoft did to make Vista so demanding of
>>>> hardware
>>>> resources? Did they do it on purpose, or did it just happen because of
>>>> sloppiness?
>>>
>>> Well I was mostly referring to Aero, not Vista as a whole. As far as
>>> Aero
>>> goes, my take on it is this.
>>>
>>> With the release of DirectX10, MS is eliminating the fixed function
>>> pipeline
>>> (something I do not like at all). All prior versions of DirectX have had
>>> this. The FFP basically exists to allow someone to render geometry
>>> without
>>> the need of pixel and vertex shaders. This still exists from the days
>>> when
>>> pixel / vertex shaders didn't exist.
>>>
>>> The FFP though has limitations. Many of todays effects used in games are
>>> not
>>> possible with it as they are too dynamic. However, there still are
>>> *many*
>>> things the FFP is perfectly capable and fine for using, UI's being the
>>> #1
>>> thing games use it for.
>>>
>>> Now Aero uses DX9, not DX10. So why am I bringing that up? Easy. I
>>> suspect
>>> that MS implemented Aero entirely using Pixel and Vertex shaders for
>>> future
>>> DX10 compatibility. So my guess is, they are using either PS2.0 or even
>>> 3.0
>>> to implement Aero.
>>>
>>> This causes lower end or older cards that don't have the appropriate
>>> level
>>> of Pixel Shader support to not be able to use Aero even though the video
>>> card itself would be perfectly capable of doing so via the FFP.
>>>
>>> Pixel shaders though are beyond overkill for the simple alpha blending
>>> Aero
>>> does. The identical effect can easily achieved via setting the
>>> appropriate
>>> texture blending flags in the FFP.
>>>
>>> Now MS could have done the same thing games do. Games will usually
>>> provide a
>>> FFP fallback when appropriate pixel shader support is lacking. That may
>>> result in reduced visual quality *if* the same effect cannot be achieved
>>> via the FFP, but everything is still usable. In Aero's case though there
>>> wouldn't be a visual difference even as all we are talking about here is
>>> simple alpha blending. A legacy TNT2 can do that...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stephan
>>> 2003 Yamaha R6
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> The original thread was " Windows Vista Aero VS Linux Ubuntu beryl"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Mike Hall
>> MS MVP Windows Shell/User
>> [url]http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/[/url]
>>
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
[url]http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/[/url]

kirk jim wrote:

<-----------------dump-------------->

All of your complaining, conspiracy theories, hunches, MS
hating/bashing, linux loser crap from trash dot won't change ANYTHING!
It is what it is.
You're turning into nothing more than a bandwidth sucking whiner.
Move on.
GET OVER IT, OK!
Frank

Mike... you mentioned cars...

While Vista is like the SUV of OS's. Big, noisy, expensive, creating huge
amounts of greenhouse gases,

I would prefer to have a light, swift small car that had high technology,
and would not pollute the air at all. I would like it to use some sort of
electric energy,
by using a global wireless energy grid. I would like this power to be for
everyone on the earth.

Impossible? 100% POSSIBLE. Tesla could do it 100 years ago.

You have to understand that this way that has been given to us, is only ONE
way.. and
there could be other, smarter, more efficient ways of doing things.

You have to be able to see beyond the constraints of what is out there, just
because THEY want you to have it. They want you to have it because THEY are
making profit. If systems were to change too much and they would lose
control, then they would not keep on making money.
The progress therefore is constrained to what suites THEIR needs. Not yours.

The consumer only can chose from what is out there. It cannot chose from
something that does not exist because it was squished even before it was
born.
The control exists before something even reaches the shelves.

However it is my firm belief that this constraint can no longer hold on for
very longer. You will see huge changes in every aspect of technology,
and they are NOT the ones you can imagine. They will be totally different!

As internet connections speeds grow to 100Mbps and even higher, and later on
data speed will be virtually limitless, there will be no need for operating
systems
like you know them today. This is why many people are investing in other
technologies.

There are technologies that would amaze you.. that can do things that you
see in only startek shows.. yet these technologies exist NOW.

But they have not been shown to the world yet... but they will....
soon......


"Mike Hall - MS MVP" <mikehall@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:OUpKu64eHHA.2052@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> Jim
>
> Re video cards, the new breed are far more capable than anything before
> them.. I was staggered by the detail I could see in Fable when I switched
> from onboard video to an nVidia 6600 256mb card (running in XP, btw).. at
> the time of purchase, there were $1000 cards out there, SLI twins, all
> kinds.. mine was a relative cheapie at $160cdn.. Games are a huge market,
> and set the standards for video reproduction.. if anything drives video
> cards on to bigger and better, games are #1..
>
> Fable of course is an MS game, but there are many more out there that are
> not.. World of Warcraft has 8 million online players, to the point where
> an WoW account has more worth if hacked than a credit card does.. isn't
> that just amazing?
>
> I have also been amazed that people upgrade their systems when there
> really is no need, or actually have bought an ATI card because the present
> crop of ATI drivers support Vista better than nVidia.. there is no
> shortage of people out there with almost unlimited funds re the buying of
> computer parts.. let us also not forget the people who just have to get
> the very best even thought they do nothing much with what they have
> bought.. Gaming parties attract people who have spent hours and $$$$$
> improving their systems, with huge water cooling units perched on top to
> give them a competitive edge.. and all way before Nov 17 2006..
>
> So now MS have an OS than can also take benefit from the new breed of
> hardware.. how can you say that MS are pushing the limits forward, when
> they have so obviously come from behind?
>
> Photo editing and music have dictated ever larger hard drives.. that and
> the saving of game levels played.. again, MS are not pushing the limits
> forward..
>
> All of the companies have to keep releasing newer bigger stuff or they
> would not be in business and there would be no updates or patches for
> anything.. the same applies to ALL manufacturing, be it computers, cars,
> whatever..
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
> news:eVaJnf3eHHA.4560@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> Hello...my replies are inline
>>
>> "Mike Hall - MS MVP" <mikehall@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> news:OPcBv$2eHHA.1252@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>>> Something that you are forgetting conveniently is that the high end
>>> cards have been around for some while, most especially for gamers who
>>> want maximum realistic detail.. Vista is taking advantage of what is
>>> already out there.. the majority of gaming machines will have no
>>> problems running Vista anything..[/color]
>>
>> I am not forgetting anything. The high end card existed for sure.. all
>> the problem was
>> how to sell more of those to more people. Gamers are a small market. By
>> needing a high end card for windows itself, it will automatically boost
>> the sales. Vista could already take advantage of what is already
>> INSTALLED on machines, because like XGL it could display those effects on
>> older machines.
>>[color=darkred]
>>> It is only the lower end machines that will suffer, and guess what? The
>>> same could be said for XP back in 2001/02.. XP ran like a dog on a PIII,
>>> 128mb, 6gb HDD, 8mb video machine even with all of the eye candy turned
>>> off.. How many people threatened or wanted to go back to Win 98/ME
>>> because Win 98 was the best OS ever.. lol..[/color]
>>
>> If you read my post, I say that this was always a strategy of MS, to
>> bloat with no real reason.
>> You could have far more efficient OS's that take up a fraction of the
>> disk and ram windows needs.
>> Its all about design.. and the care they put into it. Windows 98 was a
>> very unstable and buggy OS because of its kernel.
>> WinXP was stable as a rock, and in managed memory far better. It was
>> based on a good OS that was not originally meant
>> for the consumers. If it wasnt for Linux and Macs being stable as rocks
>> and making fun of windows 98 I am not sure
>> if MS would ever make the plunge, and transform their business kernel
>> into one to be used by everyone.
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> So now, all of a sudden, XP is the greatest and Vista is the POS.. same
>>> old same old..
>>>
>>> Games are what has driven the PC to where it is now.. for word
>>> processing, we could all get by with a 386DX40 and 2mb Matrox Mystique
>>> (itself billed as a gaming card way back when)..[/color]
>>
>> That true at some extent. It is not only games now... now we have vista
>> :-)
>>
>> again I am not saying if it is bad or good... this artificial push will
>> force people to get new computers
>> and demand for more CPU power. This artificial push will make 100 core
>> machines a reality. When the computer is not working on a vista task.. it
>> will be free to do something useful
>> like rendering an image or converting a video file.
>> It is a huge difference though to know whats going on and accepting it,
>> and it is different to accept anything
>> they give you without understanding what is happening.
>>[color=darkred]
>>> "kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
>>> news:%23SM8JT1eHHA.284@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>> This discussion was significant so I pulled it out of the thread...
>>>> I am posting my reply to stephans post.. under this reply, you will see
>>>> what was said before by stephan and another guy.
>>>> Stephan gives the technical background on what is going on with vista
>>>> and its need for powerful cards.
>>>>
>>>> I call this a conspiracy theory, because it is only a huch.. you are
>>>> free to take it into consideration, or throw it in the trash.
>>>>
>>>> --------------
>>>> My post.
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> Stephan, I have read many people saying the same things....(that aero
>>>> could be done with far less powerful display adaptors)
>>>> That is why I believe that MS did this on purpose.
>>>>
>>>> Can you imagine, the increase in sales for NVIDIA and ATI?
>>>>
>>>> Do you think MS is doing such radical changes in vista if tons of money
>>>> was not deeply involved?
>>>>
>>>> You see, there is a hidden truth here.. and the truth is that there is
>>>> a battle to keep
>>>> the MS monopoly as stable as possible. MS helps ATI and NVIDIA to boost
>>>> their sales,
>>>> and ATI and NVIDIA make sure they do not release their drivers to the
>>>> Open Source community.
>>>> There is a whole battle about this.. if you look around you will see
>>>> it. Linux without the proper
>>>> drivers is stuck on crappy and unstable graphic display drivers.
>>>> Although XGL looks neat,
>>>> there is a huge problem, since although many cards are capable of doing
>>>> such effects,
>>>> if you dont have the correct driver then things crash or dont work at
>>>> all.
>>>> Lack of drivers is the number 1 problem of Linux. The linux community
>>>> needs to find a solution for this so bad,
>>>> that it has offered to provide free services to the companies to help
>>>> write driver code for linux.
>>>> In other words ATI who will be making billions of dollars, will also
>>>> get free linux driver programmers!
>>>> However even though the open source community will be offering this,
>>>> you will see that they will be totally ignored!
>>>> This is not because they are truly ignoring them.. it is because of the
>>>> ATI-NVIDIA-MS alliance!
>>>>
>>>> Can you understand the amounts of money that are involved?
>>>>
>>>> The same conspiracy is going on, on all aspects of hardware. MS makes
>>>> sure the next OS
>>>> will be bloated so much that you need a new generation computer for it
>>>> to work properly on.
>>>> This bloat is by design, since it is very possible to have compact and
>>>> efficient applications and whole OS's that
>>>> could run on a fraction of the resources windows vista needs.
>>>>
>>>> This forces more people to take money out of their pockets and into the
>>>> vendors wallets.
>>>> By MS helping companies sell more new computers, they get in return
>>>> full support of PRE-INSTALLING
>>>> windows on their machines. Its not easy to get a linux machine or a pc
>>>> without an OS installed.
>>>> Sure you can if you look around, but most buy computers like they buy
>>>> DVD players.
>>>> They have no technical knowledge.. they go to a store and buy whatever
>>>> catches their eye and have the money
>>>> to pay for.
>>>>
>>>> Now after me taking the time to explain the background of things, you
>>>> will understand that behind my claims
>>>> there is a logic and insight on whats going on. I just dont explain
>>>> everything in each post, because if I did,
>>>> I would be writing books here... lol I am also not saying if all this
>>>> is all negative.. I can assure you that
>>>> there is a positive aspect to what is going on. But knowing this and
>>>> accepting it, is different from not knowing the truth.
>>>>
>>>> However, because your post was serious enough, I took the extra time to
>>>> write this.
>>>>
>>>> This hunch I have may not be totally correct, other things may be into
>>>> play that I cannot know...
>>>> however it seems to fit perfectly whats going on, and the trends we see
>>>> around us.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>> Prior posts
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:45:22 +0200, Stephan Rose wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gimme a friggin beak...the requirements *are* inflated. As to the
>>>>>> reasons *why* MS inflated them...I can't comment on that.
>>>>>>
>>>>> What do you suppose Microsoft did to make Vista so demanding of
>>>>> hardware
>>>>> resources? Did they do it on purpose, or did it just happen because
>>>>> of
>>>>> sloppiness?
>>>>
>>>> Well I was mostly referring to Aero, not Vista as a whole. As far as
>>>> Aero
>>>> goes, my take on it is this.
>>>>
>>>> With the release of DirectX10, MS is eliminating the fixed function
>>>> pipeline
>>>> (something I do not like at all). All prior versions of DirectX have
>>>> had
>>>> this. The FFP basically exists to allow someone to render geometry
>>>> without
>>>> the need of pixel and vertex shaders. This still exists from the days
>>>> when
>>>> pixel / vertex shaders didn't exist.
>>>>
>>>> The FFP though has limitations. Many of todays effects used in games
>>>> are not
>>>> possible with it as they are too dynamic. However, there still are
>>>> *many*
>>>> things the FFP is perfectly capable and fine for using, UI's being the
>>>> #1
>>>> thing games use it for.
>>>>
>>>> Now Aero uses DX9, not DX10. So why am I bringing that up? Easy. I
>>>> suspect
>>>> that MS implemented Aero entirely using Pixel and Vertex shaders for
>>>> future
>>>> DX10 compatibility. So my guess is, they are using either PS2.0 or even
>>>> 3.0
>>>> to implement Aero.
>>>>
>>>> This causes lower end or older cards that don't have the appropriate
>>>> level
>>>> of Pixel Shader support to not be able to use Aero even though the
>>>> video
>>>> card itself would be perfectly capable of doing so via the FFP.
>>>>
>>>> Pixel shaders though are beyond overkill for the simple alpha blending
>>>> Aero
>>>> does. The identical effect can easily achieved via setting the
>>>> appropriate
>>>> texture blending flags in the FFP.
>>>>
>>>> Now MS could have done the same thing games do. Games will usually
>>>> provide a
>>>> FFP fallback when appropriate pixel shader support is lacking. That may
>>>> result in reduced visual quality *if* the same effect cannot be
>>>> achieved
>>>> via the FFP, but everything is still usable. In Aero's case though
>>>> there
>>>> wouldn't be a visual difference even as all we are talking about here
>>>> is
>>>> simple alpha blending. A legacy TNT2 can do that...
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Stephan
>>>> 2003 Yamaha R6
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> The original thread was " Windows Vista Aero VS Linux Ubuntu beryl"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Hall
>>> MS MVP Windows Shell/User
>>> [url]http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/[/url]
>>>
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>>[/color]
>
> --
>
>
> Mike Hall
> MS MVP Windows Shell/User
> [url]http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/[/url]
>
>
>[/color]

You want proof that I cannot give you. My hypothesis will be verified in the
future...
but if it will what you will say then? Nothing...

How can you claim to know the agenda of game companies?

I say that they want to have motion picture quality 3d animations in 5
years.
This will need the best technology that's out there.. and that will include
direct x 10.

They will do this because the game that wins is the most spectacular.
With all these new cards now installed on vista machine,
the Game has Just Begun!


"Stephan Rose" <kermos@nospam.somrek.net> wrote in message
news:9rKdnbyfMf4KMobbnZ2dnUVZ8sWhnZ2d@giganews.com...[color=blue]
> kirk jim wrote:
>[color=green]
>> yourself find it odd if[color=darkred]
>>> you had a computer that was perfectly capable of running a game far
>>> more demanding than Aero but yet can't run Aero?
>>>[/color]
>> That is exactly the case.. on a pc of mine, I have an ati 9000 card with
>> 128 mb of ram.
>>
>> That one can play lots of 3d games.. its not the best in the world now,
>> no... but it works very well with beryl
>> no delay at all...
>>
>> Other people are playing 3d games on even lower power display
>> adaptors....
>> not all games
>> are super demanding, because they want to be able to sell more copies to
>> many people.
>>
>> By the way.... guess who else is going to profit from this aero move of
>> MS? The GAMING creators. That industry makes more money than all of
>> hollywood combined.
>>
>> Now with vista they will be able to create blockbuster games and they
>> will
>> have a huge market to sell them to.
>> since vista has made everyone get a super duper display adaptor just for
>> aero! lol[/color]
>
> You know, if you'd back up what you write with facts or at the very least
> logical reasoning, maybe people would take you seriously...
>
> The Gaming studios don't have much, if anything, to benefit from Vista.
> Quite the contrary. They now have to deal with the problem that people
> with
> DX10 cards will want DX10 features, but they can't write games using DX10
> without dumping their customers using DX9 for a very long time to come. So
> they either have to deal with DX10 users whining about lacking DX10
> content
> or DX9 users whining about the game not running on their hardware. Neither
> is fun to deal with and either can cost revenue in various different ways.
> Implementing both APIs in a game engine, while of course possible, isn't
> really all that feasible due to the radical difference between the two
> APIs
> and at the very minimum greatly lengthens the development cycle, testing
> cycle, possibility for bugs, development cost...which in turn raises the
> cost for the end product. None are desirable.
>
> So really, developers have a problem on their hands, not an advantage. I
> am
> kind of hoping that it will get some developers to consider OpenGL as
> OpenGL will allow both DX9 and DX10 level features without the API mess.
>
> Also, developers have been writing games to target the high-end platforms
> for many years. In many cases, developers will even write the games in
> such
> a way that on the day on the release that not even really extreme gaming
> rigs can play them with all settings enabled and maxed out. Games with
> long
> lifetimes such as MMORPGs do this a lot. Vanguard will bring my system to
> its knees if I max everything out. Just unlike Aero in vista, game engines
> usually have fallbacks for lower end hardware that still allows the game
> to
> play at reduced visual quality. This enables games to target a broad set
> of
> hardware ranging from future gaming rigs yet to be built down to mom's
> laptop with an integrated video card.
>
> But no...nothing about Vista or Aero or its hardware requirements is going
> to make developers target higher performance video cards. They already
> target the top of the line cards and have been doing so since the first
> game that was ever written.
>
> --
> Stephan
> 2003 Yamaha R6
>
> ????????????????
> ??????????????[/color]

read your post again, but this time look into the mirror.


"Frank" <fb@nospamm.cmm> wrote in message
news:uMbv5$4eHHA.2052@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> kirk jim wrote:
>
> <-----------------dump-------------->
>
> All of your complaining, conspiracy theories, hunches, MS hating/bashing,
> linux loser crap from trash dot won't change ANYTHING!
> It is what it is.
> You're turning into nothing more than a bandwidth sucking whiner.
> Move on.
> GET OVER IT, OK!
> Frank[/color]