On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
wrote:[color=blue]
> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
> |
> | Linux on the Desktop
> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in place
> | of MS Office)
> | Computers with No OS installed
> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
> |
> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went Bat-Crap.
> `----
>
> [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...[/color]

So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
like you
have already done with Novell?

You morons just don't get it do you?

Linux doesn't sell.
Companies need to make money to survive,
If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
is no doubt it has studied this
inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
via their helpdesk is going to
cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
loaded with Linux.

Walmart discovered the same thing.
A year ago they offered close to 10 different Linux loaded PC's on
their website.
Now they have one aging model left to choose and I'll bet that one is
gone shortly.

Lenovo is learning the same thing.
Sure they talk about loading Linux.
Now try and find information about Linux on their websites.
It's buried 10 frames down.
Why?
Because the valuable advertising space is taken up by Windows
machines, which sell and
pay the companies bills.


For a group of people that claim Linux and Open Source brings freedom
you sure have a nasty side to you.

I guess the freedom only comes if one follows the Open Source / Linux
bouncing ball and does everything the way
the Linux community wants it to be done.

And when one doesn't follow the Linux rules of engagement totally,
then the Linux community turns
on that person or company like some kind of a rabid rat that has been
cornered.

The problem isn't really Linux so much, the problem is the Linux
community at large which seems to
be composed of a bunch of unstable, back stabbing people.

So when do you jerks start your boycott of Dell because their Linux
support is lukewarm?

I suppose it's evil for a company to make money these days huh?

I wonder how many of you Linux zealots make your living with Windows
by day and spew your religious Linux crap by night.

You have at least one idiot in comp.os.linux.advocacy that is
literally sitting at the computer posting 24 hours a day and 7 days a
week.
And you don't think someon is paying him?
You're fools if you don't.

So when does the boycott Dell campaign begin?

[email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
[color=blue]
> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
> wrote:[color=green]
>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
>> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
>> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
>> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
>> |
>> | Linux on the Desktop
>> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in place
>> | of MS Office)
>> | Computers with No OS installed
>> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>> |
>> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
>> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went Bat-Crap.
>> `----
>>
>> [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...[/color]
>
> So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
> like you
> have already done with Novell?
>
> You morons just don't get it do you?
>
> Linux doesn't sell.
> Companies need to make money to survive,
> If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
> is no doubt it has studied this
> inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
> via their helpdesk is going to
> cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
> loaded with Linux.[/color]

Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People want
PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament and Frozen
Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.

The only game I am playing at the moment is the original Unreal through
WINE and it works great. (I couldnt follow half of the buggy
walkthroughs on how to get unreal working with UTs opengl driver on
Linux). Why the only game? Because I can honestly say that now my Ubuntu
system is solid, working with dual screen and talking to my sound card
(at last) then I have no need of XP anymore for anything other than
gaming. And frankly, I cant be arsed rebooting to windows for a 20
minute frag fest.

And, I have converted 3 people in as many weeks to using Linux. They are
all now dual booting, all swearing that Linux is crap but all are
sticking with it as I assured them the time spent in the early days
getting it working will make the experience all the sweeter a month or
so down the line when their systems are rock solid.

Hadron Quark wrote:
[color=blue]
> [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>[color=green]
>> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>> wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
>>> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
>>> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
>>> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
>>> |
>>> | Linux on the Desktop
>>> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>>> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in place
>>> | of MS Office)
>>> | Computers with No OS installed
>>> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>>> |
>>> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
>>> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went Bat-Crap.
>>> `----
>>>
>>> [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...[/color]
>>
>> So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
>> like you
>> have already done with Novell?
>>
>> You morons just don't get it do you?
>>
>> Linux doesn't sell.
>> Companies need to make money to survive,
>> If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
>> is no doubt it has studied this
>> inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
>> via their helpdesk is going to
>> cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
>> loaded with Linux.[/color]
>
> Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
> compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
> nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People want
> PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament and Frozen
> Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.[/color]

DX9 and DX10 are microsoft proprietary interfaces. Every other operating
system in the world uses OpenGL (which is also supported under windows)
which allows everything that DirectX can do.

Linux doesn't need to support DirectX. Developers simply need to use an
interface that is compatible with more than a single operating system.

Especially for games it would be so much simpler to write them to be cross
platform as they all use their own user-interfaces. The largest problem
with writing cross platform code is generally the UI.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出すひなんてないのは
君のこと忘れた時がないから

"Hadron Quark" <hadronquark******.com> wrote in message
news:87tzx62ow6.fsf******.com...[color=blue]
> [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>[color=green]
>> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>> wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"[/color][/color][/color]


<snipped>
[color=blue]
>
> And, I have converted 3 people in as many weeks to using Linux. They are
> all now dual booting, all swearing that Linux is crap but all are
> sticking with it as I assured them the time spent in the early days
> getting it working will make the experience all the sweeter a month or
> so down the line when their systems are rock solid.[/color]


Wow! People expect Windows to be stable out of the box. I feel the same
expectations apply to Linux!



--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.net> writes:
[color=blue]
> Hadron Quark wrote:
>[color=green]
>> [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>>>>
>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
>>>> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
>>>> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
>>>> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
>>>> |
>>>> | Linux on the Desktop
>>>> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>>>> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in place
>>>> | of MS Office)
>>>> | Computers with No OS installed
>>>> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>>>> |
>>>> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
>>>> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went Bat-Crap.
>>>> `----
>>>>
>>>> [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...
>>>
>>> So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
>>> like you
>>> have already done with Novell?
>>>
>>> You morons just don't get it do you?
>>>
>>> Linux doesn't sell.
>>> Companies need to make money to survive,
>>> If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
>>> is no doubt it has studied this
>>> inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
>>> via their helpdesk is going to
>>> cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
>>> loaded with Linux.[/color]
>>
>> Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
>> compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
>> nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People want
>> PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament and Frozen
>> Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.[/color]
>
> DX9 and DX10 are microsoft proprietary interfaces. Every other operating
> system in the world uses OpenGL (which is also supported under windows)
> which allows everything that DirectX can do.[/color]

Except for the fact almost no games companies use it. Which is the point
in question.

In addition, Dx9 is emulated in wine & cedega. Just to dispel your idea
that Dx cant or wont run on Linux.
[color=blue]
>
> Linux doesn't need to support DirectX. Developers simply need to use an
> interface that is compatible with more than a single operating system.[/color]

They haven't done it yet for reasons much discussed already. 99% of
action games out there are written to the Dx api. Fact. So make it
easier for Linux to run these games. WINE & CEDEGA are only half the
solution. Developers who were rpeviously using OGL for Windows & Linux
clients are moving to Dx because they dont see a games market in
Linux. Its a vicious circle. While there are no games then Little
Johhnny doesnt want it. While Little Johnny doesnt have it and only "I
dont buy SW" types have it then the games companies see no revenue
opportunity in bothering to support both platforms.
[color=blue]
>
> Especially for games it would be so much simpler to write them to be cross
> platform as they all use their own user-interfaces. The largest problem
> with writing cross platform code is generally the UI.[/color]

Huh? And the HW assisted rendering paths and 3d shading and .... All
games are about "UI" - its how you play the game ....

No one doubts OpenGL is ok . But has lost a lot of ground recently as Dx
advanced. There are a LOT more tools out there for Dx for the games
programmer too. Google will reveal all.

OpenGL doesn't perform anywhere near as well for 3-D graphics as DirectX is
why nobody writes modern games to use it. Truth be told, DirectX,
proprietary or not, has been a godsend to game developers compared to the
days when they had to write everything to work with specific GPU's.

If the Linux community really wanted to get gamers on-board, they could just
reverse engineer the DirectX interface as they have other things. The
problem is it's a non-trivial task that will require lots of man-hours from
talented developers who tend to not want to work for free.

"Stephan Rose" <kermos@somrek.net> wrote in message
news:zcadnU6GMODVIXjYnZ2dnUVZ8tzinZ2d@giganews.com...[color=blue]
> Hadron Quark wrote:
>[color=green]
>> [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>>>>
>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
>>>> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
>>>> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
>>>> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
>>>> |
>>>> | Linux on the Desktop
>>>> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>>>> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in place
>>>> | of MS Office)
>>>> | Computers with No OS installed
>>>> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>>>> |
>>>> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
>>>> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went
>>>> Bat-Crap.
>>>> `----
>>>>
>>>> [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...
>>>
>>> So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
>>> like you
>>> have already done with Novell?
>>>
>>> You morons just don't get it do you?
>>>
>>> Linux doesn't sell.
>>> Companies need to make money to survive,
>>> If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
>>> is no doubt it has studied this
>>> inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
>>> via their helpdesk is going to
>>> cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
>>> loaded with Linux.[/color]
>>
>> Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
>> compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
>> nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People want
>> PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament and Frozen
>> Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.[/color]
>
> DX9 and DX10 are microsoft proprietary interfaces. Every other operating
> system in the world uses OpenGL (which is also supported under windows)
> which allows everything that DirectX can do.
>
> Linux doesn't need to support DirectX. Developers simply need to use an
> interface that is compatible with more than a single operating system.
>
> Especially for games it would be so much simpler to write them to be cross
> platform as they all use their own user-interfaces. The largest problem
> with writing cross platform code is generally the UI.
>
> --
> Stephan Rose
> 2003 Yamaha R6
>
> ????????????????
> ?????????????[/color]

Hadron Quark wrote:
[color=blue]
> Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.net> writes:
>[color=green]
>> Hadron Quark wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>>>>>
>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
>>>>> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
>>>>> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
>>>>> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
>>>>> |
>>>>> | Linux on the Desktop
>>>>> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>>>>> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in
>>>>> | place of MS Office)
>>>>> | Computers with No OS installed
>>>>> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>>>>> |
>>>>> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
>>>>> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went
>>>>> | Bat-Crap.
>>>>> `----
>>>>>
>>>>>[/color][/color][/color]
[url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>
>>>> So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
>>>> like you
>>>> have already done with Novell?
>>>>
>>>> You morons just don't get it do you?
>>>>
>>>> Linux doesn't sell.
>>>> Companies need to make money to survive,
>>>> If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
>>>> is no doubt it has studied this
>>>> inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
>>>> via their helpdesk is going to
>>>> cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
>>>> loaded with Linux.
>>>
>>> Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
>>> compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
>>> nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People want
>>> PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament and Frozen
>>> Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.[/color]
>>
>> DX9 and DX10 are microsoft proprietary interfaces. Every other operating
>> system in the world uses OpenGL (which is also supported under windows)
>> which allows everything that DirectX can do.[/color]
>
> Except for the fact almost no games companies use it. Which is the point
> in question.[/color]

Yes, that is unfortunately the case and I wish it were otherwise.
[color=blue]
>
> In addition, Dx9 is emulated in wine & cedega. Just to dispel your idea
> that Dx cant or wont run on Linux.[/color]

Actually Cedega provides the DX interface to the game and translates it to
OpenGL. Linux has no idea about DX.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>
>> Linux doesn't need to support DirectX. Developers simply need to use an
>> interface that is compatible with more than a single operating system.[/color]
>
> They haven't done it yet for reasons much discussed already. 99% of
> action games out there are written to the Dx api. Fact. So make it
> easier for Linux to run these games. WINE & CEDEGA are only half the
> solution. Developers who were rpeviously using OGL for Windows & Linux
> clients are moving to Dx because they dont see a games market in
> Linux. Its a vicious circle. While there are no games then Little
> Johhnny doesnt want it. While Little Johnny doesnt have it and only "I
> dont buy SW" types have it then the games companies see no revenue
> opportunity in bothering to support both platforms.[/color]

I fully agree with you on all of that.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>
>> Especially for games it would be so much simpler to write them to be
>> cross platform as they all use their own user-interfaces. The largest
>> problem with writing cross platform code is generally the UI.[/color]
>
> Huh? And the HW assisted rendering paths and 3d shading and .... All
> games are about "UI" - its how you play the game ....[/color]

Precisely, however games are not dependant on the Operating System to
provide the user interface. They draw their own buttons. Their own windows.
Their own text boxes. And so on. As such, their user interfaces are only
dependant on whatever interface is used to access the hardware.
[color=blue]
>
> No one doubts OpenGL is ok . But has lost a lot of ground recently as Dx
> advanced. There are a LOT more tools out there for Dx for the games
> programmer too. Google will reveal all.[/color]

That is unfortunately true. Although, most (if not all) the major consoles
with the exception of MS' xbox of course use OpenGL. PS3 included so I
can't see OpenGL support being *that* bad either...

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出すひなんてないのは
君のこと忘れた時がないから

LaRoux wrote:
[color=blue]
> OpenGL doesn't perform anywhere near as well for 3-D graphics as DirectX
> is why nobody writes modern games to use it. Truth be told, DirectX,
> proprietary or not, has been a godsend to game developers compared to the
> days when they had to write everything to work with specific GPU's.
>
> If the Linux community really wanted to get gamers on-board, they could
> just reverse engineer the DirectX interface as they have other things. The
> problem is it's a non-trivial task that will require lots of man-hours
> from talented developers who tend to not want to work for free.[/color]

It is done via Cedega and that actually is not free.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出すひなんてないのは
君のこと忘れた時がないから

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Hadron Quark
<hadronquark******.com>
wrote
on Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:06:01 +0100
<87tzx62ow6.fsf******.com>:[color=blue]
> [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>[color=green]
>> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>> wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
>>> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
>>> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
>>> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
>>> |
>>> | Linux on the Desktop
>>> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>>> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in place
>>> | of MS Office)
>>> | Computers with No OS installed
>>> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>>> |
>>> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
>>> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went Bat-Crap.
>>> `----
>>>
>>> [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...[/color]
>>
>> So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
>> like you
>> have already done with Novell?
>>
>> You morons just don't get it do you?
>>
>> Linux doesn't sell.
>> Companies need to make money to survive,
>> If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
>> is no doubt it has studied this
>> inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
>> via their helpdesk is going to
>> cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
>> loaded with Linux.[/color]
>
> Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
> compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
> nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People want
> PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament and Frozen
> Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.[/color]

An interesting concept. Is anyone working on DX10
standardization? Even such a crappy, half-assed effort as
the so-called "Open Document" format which is supposedly
going to replace PDF would be a help for game developers.

Assuming, of course, that it's worth doing for game
developers at all; good game developers layerize their
systems as a matter of course.

Look closely at the Unreal.ini file, for example, and
you'll see a pluggable game engine. I don't know the
details but I also have Unreal Tournament (not 2000;
that has a different engine) running through a rather
unusual environment -- it's not WinE -- and it runs
reasonably well, though compared to UT2004 it's a bit
crude looking.

(Alas, the original Unreal does not like that environment.
I've forgotten precisely why. I'd love to get Wheel Of
Time running under WinE, but I might settle for QEMU, which
looks very nice now.)

DX10, however, is quite different from OpenGL, so the layer
might be a bit thick.
[color=blue]
>
> The only game I am playing at the moment is the original Unreal through
> WINE and it works great. (I couldnt follow half of the buggy
> walkthroughs on how to get unreal working with UTs opengl driver on
> Linux). Why the only game? Because I can honestly say that now my Ubuntu
> system is solid, working with dual screen and talking to my sound card
> (at last) then I have no need of XP anymore for anything other than
> gaming. And frankly, I cant be arsed rebooting to windows for a 20
> minute frag fest.
>
> And, I have converted 3 people in as many weeks to using Linux. They are
> all now dual booting, all swearing that Linux is crap but all are
> sticking with it as I assured them the time spent in the early days
> getting it working will make the experience all the sweeter a month or
> so down the line when their systems are rock solid.
>[/color]

Linux will never be rock solid. Look at the Microsoft
Windows COLA Troll Handbook (5th Edition) for details. :-)
Briefly, though, it can't possibly be rock solid, since
it's not from Microsoft.

(Personally, I think Microsoft's rocks are a bit squidgy.
But there are rocks and there are rocks -- sandstone in
particular isn't the best at making structural elements,
for example.)

--
#191, [email]ewill3@earthlink.net[/email]
Windows. Multi-platform(1), multi-tasking(1), multi-user(1).
(1) if one defines "multi" as "exactly one".

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.net> writes:
[color=blue]
> Hadron Quark wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.net> writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Hadron Quark wrote:
>>>
>>>> [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>>> | In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of Dell again
>>>>>> | and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his people put up a
>>>>>> | website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer. In no particular
>>>>>> | order, the tens of thousands of responses were:
>>>>>> |
>>>>>> | Linux on the Desktop
>>>>>> | Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>>>>>> | FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice in
>>>>>> | place of MS Office)
>>>>>> | Computers with No OS installed
>>>>>> | Less or even no AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>>>>>> |
>>>>>> | The community, upon digesting the information from the site and
>>>>>> | the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went
>>>>>> | Bat-Crap.
>>>>>> `----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[/color][/color]
> [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>>
>>>>> So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a [url]www.boycottdell[/url] site
>>>>> like you
>>>>> have already done with Novell?
>>>>>
>>>>> You morons just don't get it do you?
>>>>>
>>>>> Linux doesn't sell.
>>>>> Companies need to make money to survive,
>>>>> If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but there
>>>>> is no doubt it has studied this
>>>>> inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting Linux
>>>>> via their helpdesk is going to
>>>>> cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might sell
>>>>> loaded with Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
>>>> compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
>>>> nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People want
>>>> PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament and Frozen
>>>> Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.
>>>
>>> DX9 and DX10 are microsoft proprietary interfaces. Every other operating
>>> system in the world uses OpenGL (which is also supported under windows)
>>> which allows everything that DirectX can do.[/color]
>>
>> Except for the fact almost no games companies use it. Which is the point
>> in question.[/color]
>
> Yes, that is unfortunately the case and I wish it were otherwise.
>[color=green]
>>
>> In addition, Dx9 is emulated in wine & cedega. Just to dispel your idea
>> that Dx cant or wont run on Linux.[/color]
>
> Actually Cedega provides the DX interface to the game and translates it to
> OpenGL. Linux has no idea about DX.[/color]

What did you think I meant? bearing in mind what wine and its more games
orientated brother Cedega are?
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> Linux doesn't need to support DirectX. Developers simply need to use an
>>> interface that is compatible with more than a single operating system.[/color]
>>
>> They haven't done it yet for reasons much discussed already. 99% of
>> action games out there are written to the Dx api. Fact. So make it
>> easier for Linux to run these games. WINE & CEDEGA are only half the
>> solution. Developers who were rpeviously using OGL for Windows & Linux
>> clients are moving to Dx because they dont see a games market in
>> Linux. Its a vicious circle. While there are no games then Little
>> Johhnny doesnt want it. While Little Johnny doesnt have it and only "I
>> dont buy SW" types have it then the games companies see no revenue
>> opportunity in bothering to support both platforms.[/color]
>
> I fully agree with you on all of that.
>[color=green]
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> Especially for games it would be so much simpler to write them to be
>>> cross platform as they all use their own user-interfaces. The largest
>>> problem with writing cross platform code is generally the UI.[/color]
>>
>> Huh? And the HW assisted rendering paths and 3d shading and .... All
>> games are about "UI" - its how you play the game ....[/color]
>
> Precisely, however games are not dependant on the Operating System to
> provide the user interface. They draw their own buttons. Their own windows.
> Their own text boxes. And so on. As such, their user interfaces are only
> dependant on whatever interface is used to access the hardware.[/color]

I know. I dont why we are discussing that. Its obvious. Hence the need
for them to use a cross platform API - which used to be openGl and is
now more & more dx.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>
>> No one doubts OpenGL is ok . But has lost a lot of ground recently as Dx
>> advanced. There are a LOT more tools out there for Dx for the games
>> programmer too. Google will reveal all.[/color]
>
> That is unfortunately true. Although, most (if not all) the major consoles
> with the exception of MS' xbox of course use OpenGL. PS3 included so I
> can't see OpenGL support being *that* bad either...[/color]

I'm not so sure you are right. Can you back this up? I had high hopes
for the PS3 causing games companies to move back to opengl in the hope
of also providing a PS3 game for as near to no extra development as
matters. AFAIK the whole ogl in PS3 thing is FUD - I really dont
know. The Wii uses ogl? The ps2?

[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> In addition, Dx9 is emulated in wine & cedega. Just to dispel your idea
>>> that Dx cant or wont run on Linux.[/color]
>>
>> Actually Cedega provides the DX interface to the game and translates it
>> to OpenGL. Linux has no idea about DX.[/color]
>
> What did you think I meant? bearing in mind what wine and its more games
> orientated brother Cedega are?[/color]

Ok then we are on the same page. I thought for a moment you were saying
linux natively supporting DX. Might have just read too quickly though. =)
[color=blue][color=green]
>> That is unfortunately true. Although, most (if not all) the major
>> consoles with the exception of MS' xbox of course use OpenGL. PS3
>> included so I can't see OpenGL support being *that* bad either...[/color]
>
> I'm not so sure you are right. Can you back this up? I had high hopes
> for the PS3 causing games companies to move back to opengl in the hope
> of also providing a PS3 game for as near to no extra development as
> matters. AFAIK the whole ogl in PS3 thing is FUD - I really dont
> know. The Wii uses ogl? The ps2?[/color]

PS3

[url]http://home.btconnect.com/hgi/ps3/ps3overview.html[/url]

[url]http://tinyurl.com/2vvl3g[/url]

[url]http://tinyurl.com/bnvfw[/url]

Wii as well, check the Portability area.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Direct3D_and_OpenGL[/url]

I tried to come up with more references for the Wii but its hard to find
anything decent on google on that subject.

PS2 didn't use OGL but definitely not DX either. I think that used something
proprietary.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出すひなんてないのは
君のこと忘れた時がないから

Hadron Quark wrote:[color=blue]
> Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.net> writes:
>[color=green]
> > Hadron Quark wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
> > >
> > > > On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
> > > > >
> > > > > ,----[ Quote ]
> > > > > > In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of
> > > > > > Dell
> > > > > > again and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > put up a website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer.
> > > > > > In
> > > > > > no particular order, the tens of thousands of responses
> > > > > > were:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Linux on the Desktop
> > > > > > Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
> > > > > > FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > place of MS Office)
> > > > > > Computers with No OS installed
> > > > > > Less or even no
> > > > > > AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The community, upon digesting the information from the site
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went
> > > > > > Bat-Crap. `----
> > > > >
> > > > > [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...
> > > >
> > > > So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a
> > > > [url]www.boycottdell[/url]
> > > > site like you
> > > > have already done with Novell?
> > > >
> > > > You morons just don't get it do you?
> > > >
> > > > Linux doesn't sell.
> > > > Companies need to make money to survive,
> > > > If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but
> > > > there is no doubt it has studied this
> > > > inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting
> > > > Linux
> > > > via their helpdesk is going to
> > > > cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might
> > > > sell
> > > > loaded with Linux.
> > >
> > > Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
> > > compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
> > > nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People
> > > want PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament
> > > and Frozen Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.[/color]
> >
> > DX9 and DX10 are microsoft proprietary interfaces. Every other
> > operating system in the world uses OpenGL (which is also supported
> > under windows) which allows everything that DirectX can do.[/color]
>
> Except for the fact almost no games companies use it. Which is the
> point in question.[/color]

Um, thats jsut wrong. Every Quake engine (and any game based on them)
has at Open GL support, same with the Unreal engines, and any others.
The Battlefield games support OpenGL as well. There are many other
examples.

The problem these days is too many developers are paid to look the other
way by MS, because that one area they can hurt Linux, by making
developers use MS's proprietary API rather than an open, multiplatform
API.

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.net> writes:
[color=blue]
> That is unfortunately true. Although, most (if not all) the major consoles
> with the exception of MS' xbox of course use OpenGL. PS3 included so I
> can't see OpenGL support being *that* bad either...[/color]

I did some rooting. The PS3 uses a cut down version of OGL - OGL ES 1.0
which uses the Nvidia Cg extensions. What this means in relation of
commonality between the PS3 and the PC platform I am not sure.

LaRoux wrote:[color=blue]
> OpenGL doesn't perform anywhere near as well for 3-D graphics as
> DirectX is why nobody writes modern games to use it.[/color]

That is just complete bull. OpenGL is every bit as capable as DX, if not
more so.

The reason more companies don't use so is that they are paid and
essentially forced to use DX or risk loosing out. You relaly think
Microsfot has NO influence on these developers??

"Steve K." <savagebeaste******.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> Hadron Quark wrote:[color=green]
>> Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.net> writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > Hadron Quark wrote:
>> >
>> > > [email]jjwassermann******.com[/email] writes:
>> > >
>> > > > On Feb 28, 5:36 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > So, How Does It Feel To Have Been "Had"
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ,----[ Quote ]
>> > > > > > In a nutshell, Mike Dell fires his CEO, takes control of
>> > > > > > Dell
>> > > > > > again and starts "A New Era of Innovation." He has his
>> > > > > > people
>> > > > > > put up a website asking US what we want in a Dell Computer.
>> > > > > > In
>> > > > > > no particular order, the tens of thousands of responses
>> > > > > > were:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Linux on the Desktop
>> > > > > > Dual Boot capabilities with Linux as an option
>> > > > > > FOSS offered instead of proprietary garbage (read OpenOffice
>> > > > > > in
>> > > > > > place of MS Office)
>> > > > > > Computers with No OS installed
>> > > > > > Less or even no
>> > > > > > AOL/Earthlink/Name-Your-most-hated-spyware-here.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The community, upon digesting the information from the site
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > the dozens of articles resulting from said information, went
>> > > > > > Bat-Crap. `----
>> > > > >
>> > > > > [url]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have[/url]...
>> > > >
>> > > > So when are you Linux crybabies going to put up a
>> > > > [url]www.boycottdell[/url]
>> > > > site like you
>> > > > have already done with Novell?
>> > > >
>> > > > You morons just don't get it do you?
>> > > >
>> > > > Linux doesn't sell.
>> > > > Companies need to make money to survive,
>> > > > If Dell thought it could make big money with Linux it would, but
>> > > > there is no doubt it has studied this
>> > > > inside and out and has reached the conclusion that supporting
>> > > > Linux
>> > > > via their helpdesk is going to
>> > > > cost far more than the piddling number of machines they might
>> > > > sell
>> > > > loaded with Linux.
>> > >
>> > > Until Linux gets its act together with full and complete DX9-DX10
>> > > compatability and video drivers which work out of the box for both
>> > > nvidia AND ATI cards then the general public wont buy it. People
>> > > want PCs to play games on, and I'm afraid Quake, Unreal Tournament
>> > > and Frozen Bubble don't quite cut it anymore.
>> >
>> > DX9 and DX10 are microsoft proprietary interfaces. Every other
>> > operating system in the world uses OpenGL (which is also supported
>> > under windows) which allows everything that DirectX can do.[/color]
>>
>> Except for the fact almost no games companies use it. Which is the
>> point in question.[/color]
>
> Um, thats jsut wrong. Every Quake engine (and any game based on them)
> has at Open GL support, same with the Unreal engines, and any others.
> The Battlefield games support OpenGL as well. There are many other
> examples.[/color]

What other examples? Quake and Unreal. ID have moved away from OGL now.

There are a LOT of other games which are not based on OGL.

So, 1 major game company which hasnt released anything for 3 years uses
it.

I wish it weren't so.