Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)

MICHAEL wrote:
> I understood your question, just didn't have an
> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
> by tearing down others.
>
> Take care,
>
> Michael
>
> * Daze N. Knights:
>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>
>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>> Where have you been?
>>>
>>>
>>> -Michael
>>>
>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>
>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>
>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lang

The only way that I know how to "turn off" and eliminate shadow copies
is to turn off System Restore on all drives, which also eliminates
restore points. Is there another way?


DevilsPGD wrote:
> In message <97njf35iecensnbi81s15j8ulej225317h@4ax.com> Ashton Crusher
> <demi@moore.net> wrote:
>
>> You asked a very good question. I understand exactly what you are
>> saying and have wondered the same thing. I don't like the notion of
>> shadow copies at all. It's almost like MS was trying to make it easy
>> for law enforcement to recover your data.
>
> It was already easy for law enforcement to recover your data -- The
> difference is that now, you can do the same.
>
> You can also turn this feature off, or purge all (or all but the most
> recent) shadow copies in a number of different ways.
>

Okay, cool. I see that after reading the thread
a bit more thoroughly.

-Michael

* Daze N. Knights:
> Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
> expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
> even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
> wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
> something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)
>
> MICHAEL wrote:
>> I understood your question, just didn't have an
>> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
>> by tearing down others.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>>
>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>> Where have you been?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Michael
>>>>
>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lang

"Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
news:udDLNC5$HHA.4656@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the original
> is erased . . .


You do know that Shadow Copies only save the 'difference' in the file. They
are not complete files themselves, but only the changes from the previous
version.

ss.

Found some additional info. The first link to a video with
Vista's backup program group explaining how it all works
is worth listening to. The comments are worth reading, too.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=286303

http://www.e-articles.info/e/a/title...actional-NTFS/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_Shadow_Copy_Service


-Michael

* Daze N. Knights:
> Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
> expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
> even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
> wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
> something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)
>
> MICHAEL wrote:
>> I understood your question, just didn't have an
>> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
>> by tearing down others.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>>
>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>> Where have you been?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Michael
>>>>
>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lang

One more link;

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa819132.aspx

Excluding Files from Shadow Copies


-Michael

* Daze N. Knights:
> Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
> expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
> even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
> wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
> something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)
>
> MICHAEL wrote:
>> I understood your question, just didn't have an
>> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
>> by tearing down others.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>>
>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>> Where have you been?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Michael
>>>>
>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lang

At about the 21:20 mark, a good point is brought up.
Basically, if you have a file that's never been changed,
you will not have a previous version of that file.
So, if you accidentally or on purpose delete a file that's
never been changed, there are no previous versions of that
file, it's gone. Clicking on a folder and trying to use previous
version, will also not replace that file.

The exception to that is if it's a folder that's been backed up
by File Backup, then there will be a copy of that file. They didn't
mention this in the video, but I just checked it out myself. I looked
at some files in My Documents that I know I haven't touched in a long time,
the only previous version listed is from "Backup", not "Shadow Copy".
Also, the fewer changes going on to your files, means that less space is
being taken up by Shadow Copy and differential changes.


-Michael

* MICHAEL:
> Found some additional info. The first link to a video with
> Vista's backup program group explaining how it all works
> is worth listening to. The comments are worth reading, too.
>
> http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=286303
>
> http://www.e-articles.info/e/a/title...actional-NTFS/
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_Shadow_Copy_Service
>
>
> -Michael
>
> * Daze N. Knights:
>> Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
>> expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
>> even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
>> wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
>> something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)
>>
>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>> I understood your question, just didn't have an
>>> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
>>> by tearing down others.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>>>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>>>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>>>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>>>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>>> Where have you been?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lang

I had sorta gathered that, but was unsure about the details and
consequences. If the original file was erased, presumably those Shadow
Copies of differences in previous changes would be unresurrectable in
the form of a previous version of the file, but would they continue to
exist in a form that could still potentially be recovered for the
information provided in the changes to the original file?

I really have no super-secret files of concern here, but the issue may
be of more real importance to others who do. The question(s) occurred to
me in regard to a document file in which I keep a list of passwords. I
keep this file encrypted in the form of an executable file that requires
a password to extract the document. When I need to make a change to the
list of passwords, I execute the encrypted file to extract the
unencrypted document, then I make the changes to it, erase the original
executable file, re-encrypt the changed document into a new encrypted
executable file, and finally erase the unencrypted document itself.
During this process, I presume shadow copies are being made of the
unencrypted document when I change it, and I'd wondered if those
newly-entered passwords continue to live on in the form of "shadow
copies." Now, no one is going to go to great lengths to uncover my
passwords, but there are certainly many people with much more sensitive
information than I to whom these issues must be of some concern.

Anyway, I see Michael has done some investigation and dug up some links,
which I now need to find some time to study through to see if my
questions/concerns (such as they are) are addressed therein.

Synapse Syndrome wrote:
> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
> news:udDLNC5$HHA.4656@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the original
>> is erased . . .
>
>
> You do know that Shadow Copies only save the 'difference' in the file. They
> are not complete files themselves, but only the changes from the previous
> version.
>
> ss.
>
>

Wow. Thanks for your investigation and digging up of info on the
subject, Michael. It will take me a while to get to going through it to
see if my questions/concerns are answered therein. In the meantime,
check my very recent response to Synapse Syndrome.

regards,
Daze

MICHAEL wrote:
> At about the 21:20 mark, a good point is brought up.
> Basically, if you have a file that's never been changed,
> you will not have a previous version of that file.
> So, if you accidentally or on purpose delete a file that's
> never been changed, there are no previous versions of that
> file, it's gone. Clicking on a folder and trying to use previous
> version, will also not replace that file.
>
> The exception to that is if it's a folder that's been backed up
> by File Backup, then there will be a copy of that file. They didn't
> mention this in the video, but I just checked it out myself. I looked
> at some files in My Documents that I know I haven't touched in a long time,
> the only previous version listed is from "Backup", not "Shadow Copy".
> Also, the fewer changes going on to your files, means that less space is
> being taken up by Shadow Copy and differential changes.
>
>
> -Michael
>
> * MICHAEL:
>> Found some additional info. The first link to a video with
>> Vista's backup program group explaining how it all works
>> is worth listening to. The comments are worth reading, too.
>>
>> http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=286303
>>
>> http://www.e-articles.info/e/a/title...actional-NTFS/
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_Shadow_Copy_Service
>>
>>
>> -Michael
>>
>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>> Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
>>> expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
>>> even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
>>> wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
>>> something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)
>>>
>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>> I understood your question, just didn't have an
>>>> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
>>>> by tearing down others.
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>>>>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>>>>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>>>>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>>>>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>>>> Where have you been?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lang

You're welcome, David.

The video does have some good info. It's a bit long
at about 45 minutes, but I think it's worth a look.

Take care,

Michael

* Daze N. Knights:
> Wow. Thanks for your investigation and digging up of info on the
> subject, Michael. It will take me a while to get to going through it to
> see if my questions/concerns are answered therein. In the meantime,
> check my very recent response to Synapse Syndrome.
>
> regards,
> Daze
>
> MICHAEL wrote:
>> At about the 21:20 mark, a good point is brought up.
>> Basically, if you have a file that's never been changed,
>> you will not have a previous version of that file.
>> So, if you accidentally or on purpose delete a file that's
>> never been changed, there are no previous versions of that
>> file, it's gone. Clicking on a folder and trying to use previous
>> version, will also not replace that file.
>>
>> The exception to that is if it's a folder that's been backed up
>> by File Backup, then there will be a copy of that file. They didn't
>> mention this in the video, but I just checked it out myself. I looked
>> at some files in My Documents that I know I haven't touched in a long time,
>> the only previous version listed is from "Backup", not "Shadow Copy".
>> Also, the fewer changes going on to your files, means that less space is
>> being taken up by Shadow Copy and differential changes.
>>
>>
>> -Michael
>>
>> * MICHAEL:
>>> Found some additional info. The first link to a video with
>>> Vista's backup program group explaining how it all works
>>> is worth listening to. The comments are worth reading, too.
>>>
>>> http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=286303
>>>
>>> http://www.e-articles.info/e/a/title...actional-NTFS/
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_Shadow_Copy_Service
>>>
>>>
>>> -Michael
>>>
>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>> Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
>>>> expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
>>>> even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
>>>> wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
>>>> something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)
>>>>
>>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>>> I understood your question, just didn't have an
>>>>> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
>>>>> by tearing down others.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>>>>>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>>>>>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>>>>>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>>>>>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>>>>> Where have you been?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>>>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>>>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>>>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>>>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lang

In message <e4gM5#$$HHA.1168@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl> "Daze N. Knights"
<Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote:

>The only way that I know how to "turn off" and eliminate shadow copies
>is to turn off System Restore on all drives, which also eliminates
>restore points. Is there another way?

Nope.

--
You can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than just a kind word.

Michael:

I finally got around to watching that video, and yes, it was quite
interesting and effectively filled in some gaps in my understanding.

While I'm still not *totally* sure, I am now of the impression
that--unless one turns off System Restore entirely--both deleted and
erased items will still exist in the form of recoverable shadow copies
*until* the limitation of alloted HD space for them (15% by default)
causes them to eventually be aged out.

And this means that Shadow Copy (also called Volume Snapshot Service or
VSS) can, indeed, represent a data security risk that cannot possibly be
overcome by judicious use of an erasing tool--which leaves one with the
alternatives of full-drive encryption, turning System Restore off and
leaving it off, or simply *never* having *any* sensitive data on one's
HD at all.

Daze
------------

MICHAEL wrote:
> You're welcome, David.
>
> The video does have some good info. It's a bit long
> at about 45 minutes, but I think it's worth a look.
>
> Take care,
>
> Michael
>
> * Daze N. Knights:
>> Wow. Thanks for your investigation and digging up of info on the
>> subject, Michael. It will take me a while to get to going through it to
>> see if my questions/concerns are answered therein. In the meantime,
>> check my very recent response to Synapse Syndrome.
>>
>> regards,
>> Daze
>>
>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>> At about the 21:20 mark, a good point is brought up.
>>> Basically, if you have a file that's never been changed,
>>> you will not have a previous version of that file.
>>> So, if you accidentally or on purpose delete a file that's
>>> never been changed, there are no previous versions of that
>>> file, it's gone. Clicking on a folder and trying to use previous
>>> version, will also not replace that file.
>>>
>>> The exception to that is if it's a folder that's been backed up
>>> by File Backup, then there will be a copy of that file. They didn't
>>> mention this in the video, but I just checked it out myself. I looked
>>> at some files in My Documents that I know I haven't touched in a long time,
>>> the only previous version listed is from "Backup", not "Shadow Copy".
>>> Also, the fewer changes going on to your files, means that less space is
>>> being taken up by Shadow Copy and differential changes.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Michael
>>>
>>> * MICHAEL:
>>>> Found some additional info. The first link to a video with
>>>> Vista's backup program group explaining how it all works
>>>> is worth listening to. The comments are worth reading, too.
>>>>
>>>> http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=286303
>>>>
>>>> http://www.e-articles.info/e/a/title...actional-NTFS/
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_Shadow_Copy_Service
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Michael
>>>>
>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>> Oh, no one was *really* ridiculing me or "tearing" me down, but merely
>>>>> expressing a little befuddlement regarding my odd question. *I'm* not
>>>>> even sure my question makes much sense; just something I was trying to
>>>>> wrap my mind around was all, and I was wondering if anyone might have
>>>>> something sensible-sounding to say about it. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>>>> I understood your question, just didn't have an
>>>>>> answer..... some dolts make themselves feel better
>>>>>> by tearing down others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>>>> Oh, here and there. Actually, I've been poking through posts here pretty
>>>>>>> regularly, but have been too busy in my real life to spend much time
>>>>>>> writing and I haven't had much in the way of pressing Vista questions of
>>>>>>> late. I *did* get curious enough about this erasing of shadow copies
>>>>>>> issue, though, to stick it out here for folks to ridicule me about. ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:
>>>>>>>> Where have you been?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Daze N. Knights:
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your guess, but I'm just guessing, too, and I was hoping
>>>>>>>>> someone here might have a definitive answer. Of course, shadow copies
>>>>>>>>> being "deleted" when the original file is deleted does not amount to the
>>>>>>>>> same thing as shadow copies being "erased" (overwritten) when the
>>>>>>>>> original is erased . . .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:OJYCV2m$HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. Please see my posting a half-hour previous to your own.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lang Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Daze N. Knights" <Daze@Microdot.dot> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:eCrqG3l$HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've wondered if Vista's saving of shadow copies might actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> render the concept of erasing (overwriting) files, directory
>>>>>>>>>>>>> entries, and unused space useless. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Put another way, is your question "if I erase a file or directory,
>>>>>>>>>>>> does it's shadow copy still exist?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lang
>>>>>>>>>> Yah... your "half hour previous" post wasn't up when I responded...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At any rate, I would think not. I would assume that deleting a file or
>>>>>>>>>> folder also removes its shadow copy. That's just a total SWAG, because I
>>>>>>>>>> don't know for sure... but that would be my guess. Otherwise, how would
>>>>>>>>>> shadow copies be cleaned up? I guess there could be a process that runs
>>>>>>>>>> and checks to see if the original file/folder exists and if it doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>> then remove the shadow copies, but that seems bass-ackward to me... I'd
>>>>>>>>>> put my money on the shadow copies being deleted when the original file
>>>>>>>>>> is deleted.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lang