How's this for depressing reading:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt

Too much reading for me. Please summarize.

<gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
> How's this for depressing reading:
>
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt

Too much reading for me. Please summarize.

<gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
> How's this for depressing reading:
>
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt

Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to
provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs significant
costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead,
and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of Vista, but
the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the collateral damage
that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'

"Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>
> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>

Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to
provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs significant
costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead,
and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of Vista, but
the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the collateral damage
that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'

"Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>
> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>

I just love it when people get into this mode. Obviously, the fellow who
wrote this has some sort of political axe to grind, and is not a developer,
or at least not a competent one. The text is rife with descriptions of
problems. A developer is by nature a problem-solver. To elucidate problems
without hinting at any possible solution is fine, as long as one is willing
to abandon the idea of drawing any conclusions. Yet, this document is simply
a descriptions of problems as a large set of premises to a conclusion that
paints Microsoft in a bad light, for whatever personal reasons are held
privately by the author, and that is simply illogical.

Bottom line is, computer software and hardware development is a business.
Ultimately, the market will decide whether Microsoft made the right
decisions or not, and the public will vote with their pocketbooks. There is
plenty of competition out there, so there are plenty of alternatives.

Therefore, anyone who is overly concerned about such commentary is concerned
by choice, for whatever personal motivations they may have, and the impact
of this is on a purely personal level.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Bit Player
http://unclechutney.blogspot.com

A pea rants as candy be sieving.

"Michael Jennings" <metarhyme******.com> wrote in message
news:Od9HJZGKHHA.1044@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
> 'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
> order to
> provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs
> significant
> costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support
> overhead,
> and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of
> Vista, but
> the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content
> Protection
> looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the
> collateral damage
> that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'
>
> "Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message
> news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
>> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>>
>> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
>> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>>
>>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>>
>
>
>

I just love it when people get into this mode. Obviously, the fellow who
wrote this has some sort of political axe to grind, and is not a developer,
or at least not a competent one. The text is rife with descriptions of
problems. A developer is by nature a problem-solver. To elucidate problems
without hinting at any possible solution is fine, as long as one is willing
to abandon the idea of drawing any conclusions. Yet, this document is simply
a descriptions of problems as a large set of premises to a conclusion that
paints Microsoft in a bad light, for whatever personal reasons are held
privately by the author, and that is simply illogical.

Bottom line is, computer software and hardware development is a business.
Ultimately, the market will decide whether Microsoft made the right
decisions or not, and the public will vote with their pocketbooks. There is
plenty of competition out there, so there are plenty of alternatives.

Therefore, anyone who is overly concerned about such commentary is concerned
by choice, for whatever personal motivations they may have, and the impact
of this is on a purely personal level.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Bit Player
http://unclechutney.blogspot.com

A pea rants as candy be sieving.

"Michael Jennings" <metarhyme******.com> wrote in message
news:Od9HJZGKHHA.1044@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
> 'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
> order to
> provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs
> significant
> costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support
> overhead,
> and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of
> Vista, but
> the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content
> Protection
> looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the
> collateral damage
> that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'
>
> "Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message
> news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
>> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>>
>> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
>> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>>
>>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>>
>
>
>

You better learn world geography. With time-zone differences, that is
certainly possible.

And you better learn more about the encryption industry. Peter Gutmann is a
well known expert. Does it mean he's right on all these points? Well, most
of the technical issues are well-known and documented. The socio-political
implications are clearly opinion since no one can predict the future.

You should read the article.

Dale

"Henry Jones" <henry@TheCheckIsInTheMail.com> wrote in message
news:O7RthMQKHHA.1912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> When I saw he updated it tomorrow and posted it yesterday, an obvious
> error withn the first few lines, I knew it couldn't be very accurate so I
> dismissed the complete article.
>
> More Eggnog anyone?
>
>
> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>
>

Going on you being Central Time and him being in Australia, there's a 16
hour time difference...
When you made your post it was 1.30 am in Australia.
"Henry Jones" <henry@TheCheckIsInTheMail.com> wrote in message
news:O7RthMQKHHA.1912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> When I saw he updated it tomorrow and posted it yesterday, an obvious
> error withn the first few lines, I knew it couldn't be very accurate so I
> dismissed the complete article.
>
> More Eggnog anyone?
>
>
> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>
>

You better learn world geography. With time-zone differences, that is
certainly possible.

And you better learn more about the encryption industry. Peter Gutmann is a
well known expert. Does it mean he's right on all these points? Well, most
of the technical issues are well-known and documented. The socio-political
implications are clearly opinion since no one can predict the future.

You should read the article.

Dale

"Henry Jones" <henry@TheCheckIsInTheMail.com> wrote in message
news:O7RthMQKHHA.1912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> When I saw he updated it tomorrow and posted it yesterday, an obvious
> error withn the first few lines, I knew it couldn't be very accurate so I
> dismissed the complete article.
>
> More Eggnog anyone?
>
>
> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>
>

Going on you being Central Time and him being in Australia, there's a 16
hour time difference...
When you made your post it was 1.30 am in Australia.
"Henry Jones" <henry@TheCheckIsInTheMail.com> wrote in message
news:O7RthMQKHHA.1912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> When I saw he updated it tomorrow and posted it yesterday, an obvious
> error withn the first few lines, I knew it couldn't be very accurate so I
> dismissed the complete article.
>
> More Eggnog anyone?
>
>
> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>
>

He seems to be an open source cryptographer, which would give him a
number of axes to grind. His premise amounts to, "Microsoft is flapping
its arms in hopes of flying," based on what he says would be a quick job
(for an expert like himself) of defeating the copy protection scheme. So he
expects everyone betting 'Microsoft can fly by flapping its arms' to lose.
If the premise is sound, there's nothing illogical about the statement.

The solution was not hinted at, it was stated - buy a $50 DVD player
rather than get caught in the costly tangle of a copyprot media computer.

Now this guy could have overestimated his expertise and the ease of
defeating the copy protection. If Microsoft wants to try flying by flapping
its arms, gets liftoff and sustains flight, then they can gobble up entertainment
and complete its transformation into technical splendor devoid of content.

"Kevin Spencer" <spam@uce.gov> wrote in message news:uDSWu3OKHHA.2632@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>I just love it when people get into this mode. Obviously, the fellow who
> wrote this has some sort of political axe to grind, and is not a developer,
> or at least not a competent one. The text is rife with descriptions of
> problems. A developer is by nature a problem-solver. To elucidate problems
> without hinting at any possible solution is fine, as long as one is willing
> to abandon the idea of drawing any conclusions. Yet, this document is simply
> a descriptions of problems as a large set of premises to a conclusion that
> paints Microsoft in a bad light, for whatever personal reasons are held
> privately by the author, and that is simply illogical.
>
> Bottom line is, computer software and hardware development is a business.
> Ultimately, the market will decide whether Microsoft made the right
> decisions or not, and the public will vote with their pocketbooks. There is
> plenty of competition out there, so there are plenty of alternatives.
>
> Therefore, anyone who is overly concerned about such commentary is concerned
> by choice, for whatever personal motivations they may have, and the impact
> of this is on a purely personal level.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> Bit Player
> http://unclechutney.blogspot.com
>
> A pea rants as candy be sieving.
>
> "Michael Jennings" <metarhyme******.com> wrote in message
> news:Od9HJZGKHHA.1044@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
>> 'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
>> order to
>> provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs
>> significant
>> costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support
>> overhead,
>> and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of
>> Vista, but
>> the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content
>> Protection
>> looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the
>> collateral damage
>> that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'
>>
>> "Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message
>> news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
>>> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>>>
>>> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
>>> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>>>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

He seems to be an open source cryptographer, which would give him a
number of axes to grind. His premise amounts to, "Microsoft is flapping
its arms in hopes of flying," based on what he says would be a quick job
(for an expert like himself) of defeating the copy protection scheme. So he
expects everyone betting 'Microsoft can fly by flapping its arms' to lose.
If the premise is sound, there's nothing illogical about the statement.

The solution was not hinted at, it was stated - buy a $50 DVD player
rather than get caught in the costly tangle of a copyprot media computer.

Now this guy could have overestimated his expertise and the ease of
defeating the copy protection. If Microsoft wants to try flying by flapping
its arms, gets liftoff and sustains flight, then they can gobble up entertainment
and complete its transformation into technical splendor devoid of content.

"Kevin Spencer" <spam@uce.gov> wrote in message news:uDSWu3OKHHA.2632@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>I just love it when people get into this mode. Obviously, the fellow who
> wrote this has some sort of political axe to grind, and is not a developer,
> or at least not a competent one. The text is rife with descriptions of
> problems. A developer is by nature a problem-solver. To elucidate problems
> without hinting at any possible solution is fine, as long as one is willing
> to abandon the idea of drawing any conclusions. Yet, this document is simply
> a descriptions of problems as a large set of premises to a conclusion that
> paints Microsoft in a bad light, for whatever personal reasons are held
> privately by the author, and that is simply illogical.
>
> Bottom line is, computer software and hardware development is a business.
> Ultimately, the market will decide whether Microsoft made the right
> decisions or not, and the public will vote with their pocketbooks. There is
> plenty of competition out there, so there are plenty of alternatives.
>
> Therefore, anyone who is overly concerned about such commentary is concerned
> by choice, for whatever personal motivations they may have, and the impact
> of this is on a purely personal level.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> Bit Player
> http://unclechutney.blogspot.com
>
> A pea rants as candy be sieving.
>
> "Michael Jennings" <metarhyme******.com> wrote in message
> news:Od9HJZGKHHA.1044@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
>> 'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
>> order to
>> provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs
>> significant
>> costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support
>> overhead,
>> and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of
>> Vista, but
>> the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content
>> Protection
>> looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the
>> collateral damage
>> that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'
>>
>> "Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message
>> news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
>>> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>>>
>>> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
>>> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>>>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Well, let's see. Peter Gutmann has a Ph.D. in Computer Science. He is a
well-known expert in cryptography. While I don't know what your education
and experience credentials are, I have a feeling that they don't hold a
candle to Gutmann's. And for the record, mine don't either - that isn't an
insult, it's just a fact.

Did you follow the links for any of the sources in the sources section? Did
you read any of them? I did. Even the ones from Microsoft. His technical
descriptions are clearly accurate. To call them a personal issue or
vendetta is naive and indicate that it is you that is unwilling to "abandon
the idea of drawing any conclusions." The socio-political implications of
the hardware restrictions that Gutmann describes are obviously his opinion
but he's not without expertise in the area.

As for your statement that the software and hardware business is a business
and therefore subject to market demands, you underestimate the power of
monopoly. Without drawing conclusions whether or not Microsoft holds one
today, if they, or anyone else for that matter, do hold one in the media
distribution arena in the future, you can be sure that consumer demand will
not drive that market.

Remember the AT&T monopoly that owned the telephone and long distance
markets, including the hardware? Remember when you weren't allowed to own
your phone and had to pay rent for it even if you rented it for 30 years?
Since the breakup of the monopoly, now telephones are cheap and long
distance is virtually free. A friend of mine who worked for the phone
company pre-breakup used to show his contempt for customers by joking, "If
you don't like the service, call the other phone company." Monopolies do not
respond to market demand. They control market availability. While I am
sure you will (and probably should) question my right to make a prediction
as well, it has long been my prediction that soon (in less than 20 years),
DVDs and CDs will be gone and all media will be DRM'd and you will begin to
pay per use or listen, rather than owning a perpetual license to listen to
it.

Dale



"Kevin Spencer" <spam@uce.gov> wrote in message
news:uDSWu3OKHHA.2632@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>I just love it when people get into this mode. Obviously, the fellow who
>wrote this has some sort of political axe to grind, and is not a developer,
>or at least not a competent one. The text is rife with descriptions of
>problems. A developer is by nature a problem-solver. To elucidate problems
>without hinting at any possible solution is fine, as long as one is willing
>to abandon the idea of drawing any conclusions. Yet, this document is
>simply a descriptions of problems as a large set of premises to a
>conclusion that paints Microsoft in a bad light, for whatever personal
>reasons are held privately by the author, and that is simply illogical.
>
> Bottom line is, computer software and hardware development is a business.
> Ultimately, the market will decide whether Microsoft made the right
> decisions or not, and the public will vote with their pocketbooks. There
> is plenty of competition out there, so there are plenty of alternatives.
>
> Therefore, anyone who is overly concerned about such commentary is
> concerned by choice, for whatever personal motivations they may have, and
> the impact of this is on a purely personal level.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> Bit Player
> http://unclechutney.blogspot.com
>
> A pea rants as candy be sieving.
>
> "Michael Jennings" <metarhyme******.com> wrote in message
> news:Od9HJZGKHHA.1044@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
>> 'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
>> order to
>> provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs
>> significant
>> costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support
>> overhead,
>> and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of
>> Vista, but
>> the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content
>> Protection
>> looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the
>> collateral damage
>> that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'
>>
>> "Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message
>> news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
>>> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>>>
>>> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
>>> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>>>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Well, let's see. Peter Gutmann has a Ph.D. in Computer Science. He is a
well-known expert in cryptography. While I don't know what your education
and experience credentials are, I have a feeling that they don't hold a
candle to Gutmann's. And for the record, mine don't either - that isn't an
insult, it's just a fact.

Did you follow the links for any of the sources in the sources section? Did
you read any of them? I did. Even the ones from Microsoft. His technical
descriptions are clearly accurate. To call them a personal issue or
vendetta is naive and indicate that it is you that is unwilling to "abandon
the idea of drawing any conclusions." The socio-political implications of
the hardware restrictions that Gutmann describes are obviously his opinion
but he's not without expertise in the area.

As for your statement that the software and hardware business is a business
and therefore subject to market demands, you underestimate the power of
monopoly. Without drawing conclusions whether or not Microsoft holds one
today, if they, or anyone else for that matter, do hold one in the media
distribution arena in the future, you can be sure that consumer demand will
not drive that market.

Remember the AT&T monopoly that owned the telephone and long distance
markets, including the hardware? Remember when you weren't allowed to own
your phone and had to pay rent for it even if you rented it for 30 years?
Since the breakup of the monopoly, now telephones are cheap and long
distance is virtually free. A friend of mine who worked for the phone
company pre-breakup used to show his contempt for customers by joking, "If
you don't like the service, call the other phone company." Monopolies do not
respond to market demand. They control market availability. While I am
sure you will (and probably should) question my right to make a prediction
as well, it has long been my prediction that soon (in less than 20 years),
DVDs and CDs will be gone and all media will be DRM'd and you will begin to
pay per use or listen, rather than owning a perpetual license to listen to
it.

Dale



"Kevin Spencer" <spam@uce.gov> wrote in message
news:uDSWu3OKHHA.2632@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>I just love it when people get into this mode. Obviously, the fellow who
>wrote this has some sort of political axe to grind, and is not a developer,
>or at least not a competent one. The text is rife with descriptions of
>problems. A developer is by nature a problem-solver. To elucidate problems
>without hinting at any possible solution is fine, as long as one is willing
>to abandon the idea of drawing any conclusions. Yet, this document is
>simply a descriptions of problems as a large set of premises to a
>conclusion that paints Microsoft in a bad light, for whatever personal
>reasons are held privately by the author, and that is simply illogical.
>
> Bottom line is, computer software and hardware development is a business.
> Ultimately, the market will decide whether Microsoft made the right
> decisions or not, and the public will vote with their pocketbooks. There
> is plenty of competition out there, so there are plenty of alternatives.
>
> Therefore, anyone who is overly concerned about such commentary is
> concerned by choice, for whatever personal motivations they may have, and
> the impact of this is on a purely personal level.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> Bit Player
> http://unclechutney.blogspot.com
>
> A pea rants as candy be sieving.
>
> "Michael Jennings" <metarhyme******.com> wrote in message
> news:Od9HJZGKHHA.1044@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Peter Gutmann summarizes the link this way elsewhere:
>> 'Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
>> order to
>> provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs
>> significant
>> costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support
>> overhead,
>> and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of
>> Vista, but
>> the entire PC industry. My Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content
>> Protection
>> looks at the cost involved in Vista's content protection and the
>> collateral damage
>> that this incurs throughout the entire computer industry.'
>>
>> "Roscoe" <me@home.net> wrote in message
>> news:B0BF2E33-F130-4B1F-8D63-13E48508FFB5@microsoft.com...
>>> Too much reading for me. Please summarize.
>>>
>>> <gary@noconsequence.com> wrote in message
>>> news:8C3A6FF5-A783-47FA-B24D-68C01638D9B2@microsoft.com...
>>>> How's this for depressing reading:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>