I was talking with some co-workers today and one of them said that the
reason vendors are having a hard time releasing drivers was because Vista
has a major change different from previous Windows OS in that the kernel in
Vista is completely protected and untouchable. Microsoft didn't or won't
release the source code to vendors early to allow them to create software
drivers that interface with the new way of Vista protecting the
kernel...hence the major reason many companies don't have drivers out yet.
So it sounds like it's not the software vendors fault and they're getting
beat up on forums....or maybe the vendors aren't designing their drivers
like Microsoft wants them to??? Who knows...

I don't like second hand info unless I hear it from many pros....I'm curious
if there's any truth to the above?

Jeff

Any time a new O/S is released, it usually takes vendors
1 to 2 months to develope and test new drivers. That
is why MFST will release the retail version on Jan. 30, 2007.

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Jeff Schafer" <schafer_jeffrey********.com> wrote in message news:D11B73F0-C874-48D6-92D7-56B49C8E3B6A@microsoft.com...
|I was talking with some co-workers today and one of them said that the
| reason vendors are having a hard time releasing drivers was because Vista
| has a major change different from previous Windows OS in that the kernel in
| Vista is completely protected and untouchable. Microsoft didn't or won't
| release the source code to vendors early to allow them to create software
| drivers that interface with the new way of Vista protecting the
| kernel...hence the major reason many companies don't have drivers out yet.
| So it sounds like it's not the software vendors fault and they're getting
| beat up on forums....or maybe the vendors aren't designing their drivers
| like Microsoft wants them to??? Who knows...
|
| I don't like second hand info unless I hear it from many pros....I'm curious
| if there's any truth to the above?
|
| Jeff
|

Thanks Carey. I expected as much....patience is really all that's needed
here :)

On another note I think Microsoft is really serious this time about security
and with Vista they are forcing vendors to write drivers correctly by
blocking things that vendors took advantage of before. This time vendors
will have to use the recommended API's and the recommended and secure way of
writing drivers.

I applaud Microsoft for their level of security conciousness this time
around. Security has gotten a lot more important and blackhat hackers have
gotten a lot more dangerous. The kernel protection will make rootkits a lot
harder to run out there and it will also force vendors to write drivers
properly instead of taking shortcuts. For example, Sony won't be able to do
things like they did with their CD copy-protection "rootkit" software
anymore.

Vista is a great OS....patience people....As Carey states, Vista is not
fully released until Jan 30th despite those that have volume lincensing or
MSDN access to the OS....until then, test, get used to the new features and
help find bugs. Most importanly, don't get mad that all your hardware isn't
fully functional yet because it will be....just takes time to do things
right.

Jeff


"Carey Frisch [MVP]" <cnfrisch@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23onVUhDGHHA.3780@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> Any time a new O/S is released, it usually takes vendors
> 1 to 2 months to develope and test new drivers. That
> is why MFST will release the retail version on Jan. 30, 2007.
>
> --
> Carey Frisch
> Microsoft MVP
> Windows Shell/User
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Jeff Schafer" <schafer_jeffrey********.com> wrote in message
> news:D11B73F0-C874-48D6-92D7-56B49C8E3B6A@microsoft.com...
> |I was talking with some co-workers today and one of them said that the
> | reason vendors are having a hard time releasing drivers was because
> Vista
> | has a major change different from previous Windows OS in that the kernel
> in
> | Vista is completely protected and untouchable. Microsoft didn't or
> won't
> | release the source code to vendors early to allow them to create
> software
> | drivers that interface with the new way of Vista protecting the
> | kernel...hence the major reason many companies don't have drivers out
> yet.
> | So it sounds like it's not the software vendors fault and they're
> getting
> | beat up on forums....or maybe the vendors aren't designing their drivers
> | like Microsoft wants them to??? Who knows...
> |
> | I don't like second hand info unless I hear it from many pros....I'm
> curious
> | if there's any truth to the above?
> |
> | Jeff
> |
>
>[/color]

Jeff Schafer wrote:[color=blue]
> Thanks Carey. I expected as much....patience is really all that's
> needed here :)[/color]

Yeah, like wait until at least Jan 30, 2008.

Alias[color=blue]
>
> On another note I think Microsoft is really serious this time about
> security and with Vista they are forcing vendors to write drivers
> correctly by blocking things that vendors took advantage of before.
> This time vendors will have to use the recommended API's and the
> recommended and secure way of writing drivers.
>
> I applaud Microsoft for their level of security conciousness this time
> around. Security has gotten a lot more important and blackhat hackers
> have gotten a lot more dangerous. The kernel protection will make
> rootkits a lot harder to run out there and it will also force vendors to
> write drivers properly instead of taking shortcuts. For example, Sony
> won't be able to do things like they did with their CD copy-protection
> "rootkit" software anymore.
>
> Vista is a great OS....patience people....As Carey states, Vista is not
> fully released until Jan 30th despite those that have volume lincensing
> or MSDN access to the OS....until then, test, get used to the new
> features and help find bugs. Most importanly, don't get mad that all
> your hardware isn't fully functional yet because it will be....just
> takes time to do things right.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> "Carey Frisch [MVP]" <cnfrisch@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23onVUhDGHHA.3780@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> Any time a new O/S is released, it usually takes vendors
>> 1 to 2 months to develope and test new drivers. That
>> is why MFST will release the retail version on Jan. 30, 2007.
>>
>> --
>> Carey Frisch
>> Microsoft MVP
>> Windows Shell/User
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> "Jeff Schafer" <schafer_jeffrey********.com> wrote in message
>> news:D11B73F0-C874-48D6-92D7-56B49C8E3B6A@microsoft.com...
>> |I was talking with some co-workers today and one of them said that the
>> | reason vendors are having a hard time releasing drivers was because
>> Vista
>> | has a major change different from previous Windows OS in that the
>> kernel in
>> | Vista is completely protected and untouchable. Microsoft didn't or
>> won't
>> | release the source code to vendors early to allow them to create
>> software
>> | drivers that interface with the new way of Vista protecting the
>> | kernel...hence the major reason many companies don't have drivers
>> out yet.
>> | So it sounds like it's not the software vendors fault and they're
>> getting
>> | beat up on forums....or maybe the vendors aren't designing their
>> drivers
>> | like Microsoft wants them to??? Who knows...
>> |
>> | I don't like second hand info unless I hear it from many pros....I'm
>> curious
>> | if there's any truth to the above?
>> |
>> | Jeff
>> |
>>
>>[/color]
>[/color]

In fact, vendors have had all the code they needed to write drivers for
Vista over a year ago, and Ican show you Technet presentations that are
archived on MSFT's site on Vista where the presenter has been frank and
stated that the vendors are simply dragging their asses. At this point
there is absolutely no excuse that there are not more drivers for Vista
which has now RTM'd a month ago and there could have been drivers months ago
and this dragging has nothing whatsoever to do with heightened security,
UAC, or driver signing requirements in X86 or X64.

It is just plain sloth that accounts for this degree of ass dragging on the
part of these vendors.

It is just plain sloth that accounts for this degree of ass dragging on the
part of software makers as to Viat compatibility and hardware device makers
as to drivers.

There have been representative companies from both areas that have had Vista
drivers and Vista software compatibilty since back in December of 2005.

CH

"Jeff Schafer" <schafer_jeffrey********.com> wrote in message
news:D11B73F0-C874-48D6-92D7-56B49C8E3B6A@microsoft.com...[color=blue]
>I was talking with some co-workers today and one of them said that the
>reason vendors are having a hard time releasing drivers was because Vista
>has a major change different from previous Windows OS in that the kernel in
>Vista is completely protected and untouchable. Microsoft didn't or won't
>release the source code to vendors early to allow them to create software
>drivers that interface with the new way of Vista protecting the
>kernel...hence the major reason many companies don't have drivers out yet.
>So it sounds like it's not the software vendors fault and they're getting
>beat up on forums....or maybe the vendors aren't designing their drivers
>like Microsoft wants them to??? Who knows...
>
> I don't like second hand info unless I hear it from many pros....I'm
> curious if there's any truth to the above?
>
> Jeff[/color]

All good points Chad.

Playing devil's advocate here: Maybe some vendors are more cautious and
making sure Microsoft doesn't change anything prior to release. It would be
a waste of money to develop something years and even months before the OS is
released...you also have to ask yourself if you are a vendor making money,
would it make sense to do something idiotic like not supporting an OS many
will be using? Also some hardware is a lot more difficult to develop
drivers for
then others.

I'm sure there's some lazy vendors out there as you stated, probably a good
handful in fact, but there are also many who are very good that also haven't
released drivers yet. I'm sure there's a good reason for some but at the
same time I think your post sheds light on the fact that there are vendors
dragging their feet...Why? Your guess is as good as mine. It wouldn't be
good business-sense to do so.

People are now buying hardware for Christmas and for everyday use and many
are avoiding the vendors that don't have the Windows Vista logo on the
box....I avoided a couple products already that I would have bought if they
had the Vista logo. I helped pick out 4 laptops in the last week for some
co-workers and they avoided the ones that didn't say "Vista Ready" or "Vista
Capable".

ATI for example has had Vista beta drivers out for awhile...work pretty good
in fact...few features missing but at least they got something.

HP is just plan slow...don't even have beta drivers for partial printer
functionality....big mistake as other printer vendors do. Printing is a big
thing companies want to test before the release, especially during the BETA
and RTM phase.

Dell has Vista drivers for many of their later laptops and desktops and have
had the Vista Capaple sticker on their new systems for months now.

Creative Labs has a Vista driver for their gaming sound cards...but it's
barely functional when it comes to the surround or EAX. Many people are
posting on their forums that they are not impressed with Creative Labs and
are moving to use a competitor's product regardless. The CreativeLabs
moderator on the Creative Labs forum is quite mean too...it's funny to read
his crazy remarks to the users.....will give you a good laugh.

So....I think we all are seeing which vendors really care about the user and
which one's have good sound business practices just through the whole Vista
preperation ordeal.

Thanks for your insight Chad!

Jeff

"Chad Harris" <msftneedstogetoutvistainfo.net> wrote in message
news:%23dC9yAGGHHA.1264@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> In fact, vendors have had all the code they needed to write drivers for
> Vista over a year ago, and Ican show you Technet presentations that are
> archived on MSFT's site on Vista where the presenter has been frank and
> stated that the vendors are simply dragging their asses. At this point
> there is absolutely no excuse that there are not more drivers for Vista
> which has now RTM'd a month ago and there could have been drivers months
> ago and this dragging has nothing whatsoever to do with heightened
> security, UAC, or driver signing requirements in X86 or X64.
>
> It is just plain sloth that accounts for this degree of ass dragging on
> the part of these vendors.
>
> It is just plain sloth that accounts for this degree of ass dragging on
> the part of software makers as to Viat compatibility and hardware device
> makers as to drivers.
>
> There have been representative companies from both areas that have had
> Vista drivers and Vista software compatibilty since back in December of
> 2005.
>
> CH
>
> "Jeff Schafer" <schafer_jeffrey********.com> wrote in message
> news:D11B73F0-C874-48D6-92D7-56B49C8E3B6A@microsoft.com...[color=green]
>>I was talking with some co-workers today and one of them said that the
>>reason vendors are having a hard time releasing drivers was because Vista
>>has a major change different from previous Windows OS in that the kernel
>>in Vista is completely protected and untouchable. Microsoft didn't or
>>won't release the source code to vendors early to allow them to create
>>software drivers that interface with the new way of Vista protecting the
>>kernel...hence the major reason many companies don't have drivers out yet.
>>So it sounds like it's not the software vendors fault and they're getting
>>beat up on forums....or maybe the vendors aren't designing their drivers
>>like Microsoft wants them to??? Who knows...
>>
>> I don't like second hand info unless I hear it from many pros....I'm
>> curious if there's any truth to the above?
>>
>> Jeff[/color]
>[/color]

Jeff Schafer wrote:[color=blue]
> All good points Chad.
>
> Playing devil's advocate here: Maybe some vendors are more cautious and
> making sure Microsoft doesn't change anything prior to release. It would
> be a waste of money to develop something years and even months before
> the OS is released...you also have to ask yourself if you are a vendor
> making money, would it make sense to do something idiotic like not
> supporting an OS many will be using? Also some hardware is a lot more
> difficult to develop drivers for
> then others.
>
> I'm sure there's some lazy vendors out there as you stated, probably a
> good handful in fact, but there are also many who are very good that
> also haven't released drivers yet. I'm sure there's a good reason for
> some but at the same time I think your post sheds light on the fact that
> there are vendors dragging their feet...Why? Your guess is as good as
> mine. It wouldn't be good business-sense to do so.
>
> People are now buying hardware for Christmas and for everyday use and
> many are avoiding the vendors that don't have the Windows Vista logo on
> the box....I avoided a couple products already that I would have bought
> if they had the Vista logo. I helped pick out 4 laptops in the last
> week for some co-workers and they avoided the ones that didn't say
> "Vista Ready" or "Vista Capable".
>
> ATI for example has had Vista beta drivers out for awhile...work pretty
> good in fact...few features missing but at least they got something.
>
> HP is just plan slow...don't even have beta drivers for partial printer
> functionality....big mistake as other printer vendors do. Printing is a
> big thing companies want to test before the release, especially during
> the BETA and RTM phase.
>
> Dell has Vista drivers for many of their later laptops and desktops and
> have had the Vista Capaple sticker on their new systems for months now.
>
> Creative Labs has a Vista driver for their gaming sound cards...but it's
> barely functional when it comes to the surround or EAX. Many people are
> posting on their forums that they are not impressed with Creative Labs
> and are moving to use a competitor's product regardless. The
> CreativeLabs moderator on the Creative Labs forum is quite mean
> too...it's funny to read his crazy remarks to the users.....will give
> you a good laugh.
>
> So....I think we all are seeing which vendors really care about the user
> and which one's have good sound business practices just through the
> whole Vista preperation ordeal.
>
> Thanks for your insight Chad!
>
> Jeff[/color]

So, the moral of the story is wait on Vista until everyone gets their
sh*t together.

Alias, who's waiting for at least a year.
[color=blue]
> "Chad Harris" <msftneedstogetoutvistainfo.net> wrote in message
> news:%23dC9yAGGHHA.1264@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> In fact, vendors have had all the code they needed to write drivers
>> for Vista over a year ago, and Ican show you Technet presentations
>> that are archived on MSFT's site on Vista where the presenter has been
>> frank and stated that the vendors are simply dragging their asses. At
>> this point there is absolutely no excuse that there are not more
>> drivers for Vista which has now RTM'd a month ago and there could have
>> been drivers months ago and this dragging has nothing whatsoever to do
>> with heightened security, UAC, or driver signing requirements in X86
>> or X64.
>>
>> It is just plain sloth that accounts for this degree of ass dragging
>> on the part of these vendors.
>>
>> It is just plain sloth that accounts for this degree of ass dragging
>> on the part of software makers as to Viat compatibility and hardware
>> device makers as to drivers.
>>
>> There have been representative companies from both areas that have had
>> Vista drivers and Vista software compatibilty since back in December
>> of 2005.
>>
>> CH
>>
>> "Jeff Schafer" <schafer_jeffrey********.com> wrote in message
>> news:D11B73F0-C874-48D6-92D7-56B49C8E3B6A@microsoft.com...[color=darkred]
>>> I was talking with some co-workers today and one of them said that
>>> the reason vendors are having a hard time releasing drivers was
>>> because Vista has a major change different from previous Windows OS
>>> in that the kernel in Vista is completely protected and untouchable.
>>> Microsoft didn't or won't release the source code to vendors early to
>>> allow them to create software drivers that interface with the new way
>>> of Vista protecting the kernel...hence the major reason many
>>> companies don't have drivers out yet. So it sounds like it's not the
>>> software vendors fault and they're getting beat up on forums....or
>>> maybe the vendors aren't designing their drivers like Microsoft wants
>>> them to??? Who knows...
>>>
>>> I don't like second hand info unless I hear it from many pros....I'm
>>> curious if there's any truth to the above?
>>>
>>> Jeff[/color]
>>[/color]
>[/color]