At 17 Dec 2008 18:26:09 -0800 evanchik******.com wrote:
> I do not understand how with the iphone out for years and years...

Almost 18 months actually...

> now
> that still windows mobile and smartphone devices are completely user
> unfriendly. Now take the fact that you want to do some advanced
> features that windows mobile has, but have to go threw such horrible
> menus is just nuts.

I'm actually pretty happy with the menuing system on WinMo Professional
(touchscreen) devices. I like the fact that I can create subfolders in the
programs menu like I do on the desktop. I have folders for Utilities,
Communications, Games , Navigation, etc., so my three dozen or so installed
apps are easy to find.

My wife has an iPhone and has run rampant in the app store. She's
downloaded probably 40 apps, forcing you to flick and slide your way
through 4 pages of icons, organized in no logical manner whatsoever.
Drives me crazy! The icon UI was obviously designed back before the iPhone
was opened for 3rd-party app development! Are folders too much to ask for?


> I know, and sure hope, that windows mobile 7 will
> put to rest this absolute crap that they have been putting out. All
> be it way too late. Late isnt even the word. (insert word way worse
> then late) Do they not even use what they create? I know microsoft
> has plenty of departments for testing, q/a etc. So how could they
> approve windows mobile 5, windows mobile 6, windows mobile 6.1 with
> any comparison to an iphone???? Not only are they not using what they
> give out, they dont even compare to the company they are in
> competition with!!!
>
> Microsoft is their own worst enemy.


Help them out, then- you're ranting that it's crap, but tell us and them
WHAT you find "crap" about it? Other than a vague comment about the
"horrible menus," you haven't told us in what way the iPhone UI is better.

While I see the attraction in the finger-based interface for many, I'm
personally a stylus fan- it's more accurate than my fat fingers, and after
10 years of Windows CE-based PDAs, I'm pretty quick tapping on the soft
keyboard. As I joke with an iPhone-using friend who calls styli
"outdated", I use a stylus instead of fingers on a touchscreen for the same
reason I use a pen instead of finger paint to write a letter.


> I do not want to use an iphone, my girlfriend uses it, it is a very
> good OS for a phone. I can pull up a webpage, and do whatever is
> needed almost 5 times faster then i can with my mobile 6.1 phone. If
> im at dinner and i need to look something up, i ask to use her phone
> and i tell her its cause i do not want to get my blood pressure up.


Web browsing is currently the achilles' heel of WinMo right now, but any
number of third-party browsers fill the gap. I primarily use Opera Mini
for viewing the "real" web, and it does a good job and is very quick
(mostly due to the fact that the real work is done on Opera's servers.) I
use IE Mobile for mobile-formatted sites mostly, but it does ok on real
sites.


> I
> still prefer to use a Windows phone due to the fact I like to have my
> outlook synched, contacts, tasks, mail with Exchange 2007 seamlessly
> over a WAN. Microsoft still has us locked down in this manor as its
> still a majority desktop OS as well as a cost productive enterprise
> solution for servers.

The iPhone can do that as well (except for tasks, IIRC.)

> I think enterprise software that Microsoft has
> been releasing are great(exchange, sharepoint, Server 2008 etc etc)
> But they lost the grip on mobile devices totally.

They're certainly less sexy than the iPhone, but they get the job done.

What I find amazing about the iPhone is how intentionally crippled it is.
You think it makes WinMo devices look silly, and that's with both hands
tied behind its back, courtesy its maker! Imagine if you could store
documents on it and edit them, or if it multitasked, or had real navigation
software.

The iPhone is beautiful piece of hardware completely hamstrung by its
"Smartphone for Dummies" OS.
>
>
> P.S all the updates and new features in pocket IE is absolutely
> amazing!!!! I sure hope you all know i am joking.
> I understand Mozilla, and Opera have thier own browsers that can help,
> but why would they want to leave it to them? They will never
> integrate fully.

How is IE Mobile "integrated" now? You can set Opera Mobile, Netfront,
etc. as the default browser, assign a button to launch it, etc. just like
with IEM.

I guess, in the end, it all comes down to what you're trying to accomplish
with a mobile device.

> I'm actually pretty happy with the menuing system on WinMo Professional
> (touchscreen) devices. I like the fact that I can create subfolders in the
> programs menu like I do on the desktop. I have folders for Utilities,
> Communications, Games , Navigation, etc., so my three dozen or so installed
> apps are easy to find.
>
> My wife has an iPhone and has run rampant in the app store. She's
> downloaded probably 40 apps, forcing you to flick and slide your way
> through 4 pages of icons, organized in no logical manner whatsoever.
> Drives me crazy! The icon UI was obviously designed back before the iPhone
> was opened for 3rd-party app development! Are folders too much to ask for?

Try to search those folders. The results pane lets u do nothing.

>
> Help them out, then- you're ranting that it's crap, but tell us and them
> WHAT you find "crap" about it? Other than a vague comment about the
> "horrible menus," you haven't told us in what way the iPhone UI is better.
>
> While I see the attraction in the finger-based interface for many, I'm
> personally a stylus fan- it's more accurate than my fat fingers, and after
> 10 years of Windows CE-based PDAs, I'm pretty quick tapping on the soft
> keyboard. As I joke with an iPhone-using friend who calls styli
> "outdated", I use a stylus instead of fingers on a touchscreen for the same
> reason I use a pen instead of finger paint to write a letter.
>

I wish i could have kept a list. But unfotunately i did not. No matter
what i say here they never listen. I have been on microsoft campus to help
them with IE7 a while back and they just said ya uha ok....

I also like the pen BUT, i have lost them. Many times. If they were
attached (i have tried using a small string it helps) But touch works fine,
they even make touch screens for big fingered folk these days.

I prefer a built in keyboard. Thankfully my phone has one. The onscreen
keyboard anoys me when it pops up on my winmo phone.


>
> Web browsing is currently the achilles' heel of WinMo right now, but any
> number of third-party browsers fill the gap. I primarily use Opera Mini
> for viewing the "real" web, and it does a good job and is very quick
> (mostly due to the fact that the real work is done on Opera's servers.) I
> use IE Mobile for mobile-formatted sites mostly, but it does ok on real
> sites.
>


I TOTALLY disagree, i use Opera mini too and its BAD. Zooming in, clicking
, and right clicking is a mess. To zoom u have to hold it down, sometimes it
zooms in by accident when u are only trying to click something over and over.
It is way better then pocket ie with the tabs and all, but those are
limited, an trying to close them individually is a pain. I get to my max
when i didnt even want to open a site in another tab. We will see what
mozilla comes out with.


If you compare apples usuability to pocket ie its not even a contest.
Zooming in, out, scrolling etc How it has its own built in menu for drop
down menus. Etc.

I just dont see an argument here. They dropped the ball. They should be
starting thier own hardware off the line like apple does customized to thier
phone. With a nice larger screen then most HTC phones have. Maybe even do
one up on apple with a built in keyboard. Nice and thin device. I have a
HTC fuze(which is like a diamond) Att wireless. I think the touch menu was
done by HTC not microsoft. IT does respond sometimes if u tile the phone one
way or the other, sometimes i have to shake it.

I think M$ just thinks they can live of Windows and let the community make
the rest. As time is going by here, they are loosing out, year by year.
Loosing browser domance, mobile competition, soon maybe even OS... then its
over.

They need to create not only a baseline OS but follow through on thier
software all the way to thier own hardware product line and take advantage of
this. Apple does it, Google is trying. Maybe all the anti trust made them
scared i just do not know.

>
> > I
> > still prefer to use a Windows phone due to the fact I like to have my
> > outlook synched, contacts, tasks, mail with Exchange 2007 seamlessly
> > over a WAN. Microsoft still has us locked down in this manor as its
> > still a majority desktop OS as well as a cost productive enterprise
> > solution for servers.
>
> The iPhone can do that as well (except for tasks, IIRC.)
>
> > I think enterprise software that Microsoft has
> > been releasing are great(exchange, sharepoint, Server 2008 etc etc)
> > But they lost the grip on mobile devices totally.
>
> They're certainly less sexy than the iPhone, but they get the job done.
>
> What I find amazing about the iPhone is how intentionally crippled it is.
> You think it makes WinMo devices look silly, and that's with both hands
> tied behind its back, courtesy its maker! Imagine if you could store
> documents on it and edit them, or if it multitasked, or had real navigation
> software.
>
> The iPhone is beautiful piece of hardware completely hamstrung by its
> "Smartphone for Dummies" OS.
> >
> >
> > P.S all the updates and new features in pocket IE is absolutely
> > amazing!!!! I sure hope you all know i am joking.
> > I understand Mozilla, and Opera have thier own browsers that can help,
> > but why would they want to leave it to them? They will never
> > integrate fully.
>
> How is IE Mobile "integrated" now? You can set Opera Mobile, Netfront,
> etc. as the default browser, assign a button to launch it, etc. just like
> with IEM.
>
> I guess, in the end, it all comes down to what you're trying to accomplish
> with a mobile device.
>
>
>
>
>

> > I
> > still prefer to use a Windows phone due to the fact I like to have my
> > outlook synched, contacts, tasks, mail with Exchange 2007 seamlessly
> > over a WAN. Microsoft still has us locked down in this manor as its
> > still a majority desktop OS as well as a cost productive enterprise
> > solution for servers.
>
> The iPhone can do that as well (except for tasks, IIRC.)
>

I have done it with the iphone and it doesnt have tasks exactly, which is my
todo list basic 101 of a phone since palms devices. But either way they are
trying to synch microsoft stuff anyway, not thier own. I like how all my
contacts get auto imported into live windows moble as well etc to the contrary


> > I think enterprise software that Microsoft has
> > been releasing are great(exchange, sharepoint, Server 2008 etc etc)
> > But they lost the grip on mobile devices totally.
>
> They're certainly less sexy than the iPhone, but they get the job done.
>
> What I find amazing about the iPhone is how intentionally crippled it is.
> You think it makes WinMo devices look silly, and that's with both hands
> tied behind its back, courtesy its maker! Imagine if you could store
> documents on it and edit them, or if it multitasked, or had real navigation
> software.

I agree its crippled, which is why i still try to run my smartphone. But
the whole point of started with this thread is the release of frustration
just trying to do the simplest of things which apple made easy with very
minimal work. I give microsoft an F for attention to detail.

>
> The iPhone is beautiful piece of hardware completely hamstrung by its
> "Smartphone for Dummies" OS.
> >
> >
> > P.S all the updates and new features in pocket IE is absolutely
> > amazing!!!! I sure hope you all know i am joking.
> > I understand Mozilla, and Opera have thier own browsers that can help,
> > but why would they want to leave it to them? They will never
> > integrate fully.
>
> How is IE Mobile "integrated" now? You can set Opera Mobile, Netfront,
> etc. as the default browser, assign a button to launch it, etc. just like
> with IEM.
>


I didnt say it was. But it can be, its thier api, their embedded os, they
can do the things apple does if they take advantage of their own framework
but they dont. Opera, and soon to see mozilla is doing what they should be
doing.

> I guess, in the end, it all comes down to what you're trying to accomplish
> with a mobile device.

Although I use every inch of my phone, even development, im only trying to
accomplish the simplest of things =(

And i could start a thread on development alone. The .net compact framework
is definitely what u call coding with one arm tied behind your back.
eMbedded c++ is a nightmare. iPhone development makes u think , this is how
things should be done.


>
>
>
>
>

At 17 Dec 2008 23:32:00 -0800 Michael Evanchik wrote:

> I also like the pen BUT, i have lost them. Many times. If they were
> attached (i have tried using a small string it helps)

I just buy a half-dozen or so on eBay whenever I but a new device so I have
spares on hand.

> But touch works fine,
> they even make touch screens for big fingered folk these days.


They do, but I'm still happier with a stylus.
> I prefer a built in keyboard. Thankfully my phone has one. The onscreen
> keyboard anoys me when it pops up on my winmo phone.

I have a slide-out keyboard but rarely use it.


> > Web browsing is currently the achilles' heel of WinMo right now, but any
> > number of third-party browsers fill the gap. I primarily use Opera Mini
> > for viewing the "real" web, and it does a good job and is very quick
> > (mostly due to the fact that the real work is done on Opera's servers.)
I
> > use IE Mobile for mobile-formatted sites mostly, but it does ok on real
> > sites.
> >
>
>
> I TOTALLY disagree, i use Opera mini too and its BAD. Zooming in,
clicking
> , and right clicking is a mess. To zoom u have to hold it down,
sometimes it
> zooms in by accident when u are only trying to click something over and
over.
> It is way better then pocket ie with the tabs and all, but those are
> limited, an trying to close them individually is a pain. I get to my max
> when i didnt even want to open a site in another tab. We will see what
> mozilla comes out with.


I think you're talking about Opera Mobile. Mini is the cheesier one that
requires Java. It renders nicely, and uses a single tap to zoom. No tabs,
just a very simple browser. (Technically, it probably isn't really a
browser, since the actual rendering is done on Opera's servers and the
output is sent to the phone- much like Thunderhawk for Pocket PC's did.)

> If you compare apples usuability to pocket ie its not even a contest.
> Zooming in, out, scrolling etc How it has its own built in menu for drop
> down menus. Etc.


Agreed- I'll give you the browser. Apple beat everyone with that. But
that's really the only (software) feature of the iPhone that impressed me.

> I just dont see an argument here. They dropped the ball. They should be
> starting thier own hardware off the line like apple does customized to
thier
> phone. With a nice larger screen then most HTC phones have. Maybe even
do
> one up on apple with a built in keyboard. Nice and thin device. I have
a
> HTC fuze(which is like a diamond) Att wireless. I think the touch menu
was
> done by HTC not microsoft. IT does respond sometimes if u tile the phone
one
> way or the other, sometimes i have to shake it.


I agree- a large part of WinMo's problems stem from the fact that the
hardware varies so much.


> I think M$ just thinks they can live of Windows and let the community
make
> the rest. As time is going by here, they are loosing out, year by year.
> Loosing browser domance, mobile competition, soon maybe even OS... then
its
> over.
>
> They need to create not only a baseline OS but follow through on thier
> software all the way to thier own hardware product line and take
advantage of
> this. Apple does it, Google is trying. Maybe all the anti trust made
them
> scared i just do not know.


I don't think it's fear as much as maintaining good relationships. It's
hard to convince OEMs to use your OS if you toss your hat in the ring and
directly compete with them.

Making $10 a piece (or whatever) on each and every Windows Mobile phone
someone else builds and has to support beats making $100 a piece on far
fewer phone you build youself, after you enter the market and scare your
OEMs into making Android phones!