"Mark Shapiro" <mark@mail.goguys.com> wrote in message
news:1j7o3ca.1l8nrxc1fx22sN%mark@mail.goguys.com.. .
>I got a Dell XP laptop 3 years ago.
> Have firewall, virus protection, do
> all updates, don't open attachment,
> don't use file sharing, don't move it.
> Every year, the hard drive dies with
> no warning. It is gone. Twice I
> replaced it. This time I'm not going
> to replace the hard drive.
> Why do PC laptops die so quick?
> I have a 10-year old Mac laptop that
> still runs fine - if I don't go to modern
> web sites. Why do hard drives die
> so fast on Windows laptops?
> Or is my experience rare?

You may be just unlucky. Out of a dozen or so hard drives that I have had
in PCs over the years, I have only ever had one die on me. Coincidentally,
it was the drive supplied by Dell in a PC that I bought from them. Also
coincidentally, the DVD burner failed some time earlier within the warranty
period (I didn't bother to pursue Dell for it as they are as cheap as chips
to buy).

Barry Watzman wrote on Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:23:14 -0400:
> The industry sells 100 MILLION additional new laptops per year,
> worldwide, and there are HUNDREDS of MILLIONS in use (not only those
> sold this year but all of those sold in the past; the total number of PC
> in use worldwide is in the billions). OF COURSE THERE ARE MILLIONS OF
> DRIVE FAILURES PER YEAR. There are probably TENS of millions per year.
> And I have a clue for you: SOME OF THEM ARE EVEN IN MAC LAPTOPS.

Yeah so? There are probably tens of millions of hard drives that fail
every year. How is that any different than what I said?

> Your posts are becoming absurd. You have no statistical evidence to
> backup your claims.

Sure I do! I can even use you own words. "OF COURSE THERE ARE MILLIONS
OF DRIVE FAILURES PER YEAR. There are probably TENS of millions per year."

And if you wanted statistical evidence, all you have to do is to ask!
How about by researchers at Carnegie Mellon and Google? Would that be
good enough for you?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/13116..._frequent.html

Which also lines up pretty close with my own personal experience. As out
of about the last 20 hard drives I purchased, 3 have failed within a
month. That is a whopping 15% failure rate. Btw, two of the failed ones
came from TigerDirect. And they wouldn't take them back.

By the way, besides stating your own opinion... do you have any
statistical evidence for billions of computers in use today? As that
sounds very high to me. As there is only about 7 billion people in the
world. And it is my understanding that there are a few billion of people
who don't even have computers.

> And, further, if you open up a Mac laptop, and look
> at the hard drive, you will find it's a standard 2.5" SATA hard drive
> made by one of the major drive manufacturers. It's not a "special"
> model. There is nothing particularly unique about it, it's likely a
> model that you or I could buy from Newegg or ZipZoomFly and that other
> laptop makers use in non-Mac products (given the cost of Mac laptops, I
> would however hope that it would be a higher-end model, in terms of
> rotational speed and cache size).

And after I showed you the URL earlier, you still are in denial? Okay
I'll make it easier for you and you don't have to bother clicking on any
URL this time around. Now for example the MacBook Pros uses Seagate
Momentus 7200.4 hard drives. Which sports "an internal G-Force
accelerometer to help protect the hard drive from sudden shock".
Although it also sports: "Apple’s MacBooks have their own anti-shock
hardware to protect a hard drive".

Yes you can buy Seagate Momentus 7200.4 hard drives at places like
Newegg (the reviews are terrible though). But what about MacBook's own
anti-shock hardware? My Gateway or Toshiba laptops doesn't have any
anti-shock hardware! Nor sports anti-shock hard drives either! Do you
have any? And are you still in denial that MacBook's still uses the same
hardware that other manufactures use? Don't you recall the early iPods
and heavy hard drives faulures that Apple had to learn an important
lesson from?

http://macs.about.com/b/2009/08/10/s...rpm-drives.htm

> BillW50 wrote:
>> Barry Watzman wrote on Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:49:18 -0400:
>>> I deal with hundreds of laptops a year (buying, refurbing, servicing
>>> and selling them) and while drives do fail, the drives in most
>>> laptops will last the life of that laptop. The situation described
>>> by the author of the thread is simply not typical.
>>
>> And I have read posts from thousands of users over the many years who
>> has suffered data loss do to a failed hard drive. While you or I may
>> not see this personally, there is a huge number out there who has.
>>

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 702G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Xandros Linux (build 2007-10-19 13:03)

M.I.5 wrote on Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:42:47 +0100:
> "Mark Shapiro" <mark@mail.goguys.com> wrote in message
> news:1j7o3ca.1l8nrxc1fx22sN%mark@mail.goguys.com.. .
>> I got a Dell XP laptop 3 years ago.
>> Have firewall, virus protection, do
>> all updates, don't open attachment,
>> don't use file sharing, don't move it.
>> Every year, the hard drive dies with
>> no warning. It is gone. Twice I
>> replaced it. This time I'm not going
>> to replace the hard drive.
>> Why do PC laptops die so quick?
>> I have a 10-year old Mac laptop that
>> still runs fine - if I don't go to modern
>> web sites. Why do hard drives die
>> so fast on Windows laptops?
>> Or is my experience rare?
>
> You may be just unlucky. Out of a dozen or so hard drives that I have had
> in PCs over the years, I have only ever had one die on me. Coincidentally,
> it was the drive supplied by Dell in a PC that I bought from them. Also
> coincidentally, the DVD burner failed some time earlier within the warranty
> period (I didn't bother to pursue Dell for it as they are as cheap as chips
> to buy).

Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock technology and
others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it to me.

And add to the idea that laptops are often used as portable devices. Yet
most of them use mechanical hard drives. And mechanical hard drives
makes for poor portable devices. As shock and vibrations causes head and
platter damage. Thus you can end up with a failed hard drive. I also
have been using mostly solid state drives (SSD) for over a year now. So
one less thing to worry about.

Btw, I have never returned a failed computer even under warranty. It is
just faster repairing them myself. Although I have sort of got away from
repairing motherboards. Don't do repairs on them like I used too.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 702G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Xandros Linux (build 2007-10-19 13:03)

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> M.I.5 wrote on Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:42:47 +0100:
>> "Mark Shapiro" <mark@mail.goguys.com> wrote in message
>> news:1j7o3ca.1l8nrxc1fx22sN%mark@mail.goguys.com.. .
>>> I got a Dell XP laptop 3 years ago.
>>> Have firewall, virus protection, do
>>> all updates, don't open attachment,
>>> don't use file sharing, don't move it.
>>> Every year, the hard drive dies with
>>> no warning. It is gone. Twice I
>>> replaced it. This time I'm not going
>>> to replace the hard drive.
>>> Why do PC laptops die so quick?
>>> I have a 10-year old Mac laptop that
>>> still runs fine - if I don't go to modern
>>> web sites. Why do hard drives die
>>> so fast on Windows laptops?
>>> Or is my experience rare?
>>
>> You may be just unlucky. Out of a dozen or so hard drives that I have
>> had in PCs over the years, I have only ever had one die on me.
>> Coincidentally, it was the drive supplied by Dell in a PC that I bought
>> from them. Also coincidentally, the DVD burner failed some time earlier
>> within the warranty period (I didn't bother to pursue Dell for it as they
>> are as cheap as chips to buy).
>
> Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock technology and
> others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it to me.
>

I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one else
uses.

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> M.I.5 wrote on Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:42:47 +0100:
>> "Mark Shapiro" <mark@mail.goguys.com> wrote in message
>> news:1j7o3ca.1l8nrxc1fx22sN%mark@mail.goguys.com.. .
>>> I got a Dell XP laptop 3 years ago.
>>> Have firewall, virus protection, do
>>> all updates, don't open attachment,
>>> don't use file sharing, don't move it.
>>> Every year, the hard drive dies with
>>> no warning. It is gone. Twice I
>>> replaced it. This time I'm not going
>>> to replace the hard drive.
>>> Why do PC laptops die so quick?
>>> I have a 10-year old Mac laptop that
>>> still runs fine - if I don't go to modern
>>> web sites. Why do hard drives die
>>> so fast on Windows laptops?
>>> Or is my experience rare?
>>
>> You may be just unlucky. Out of a dozen or so hard drives that I have
>> had in PCs over the years, I have only ever had one die on me.
>> Coincidentally, it was the drive supplied by Dell in a PC that I bought
>> from them. Also coincidentally, the DVD burner failed some time earlier
>> within the warranty period (I didn't bother to pursue Dell for it as they
>> are as cheap as chips to buy).
>
>
> And add to the idea that laptops are often used as portable devices. Yet
> most of them use mechanical hard drives. And mechanical hard drives makes
> for poor portable devices. As shock and vibrations causes head and platter
> damage. Thus you can end up with a failed hard drive. I also have been
> using mostly solid state drives (SSD) for over a year now. So one less
> thing to worry about.
>

Whilst I agree that hard disc drives would seem to be a poor choice for
portable computers (laptops) due to the way they are used and handled,
nevertheless, they do seem to be more reliable than one might expect. I
have not had a laptop drive fail either at home or in the office.

> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one else
> uses.


I have found that Mac laptops have drives that are
more protected with rubber or shock-absorbing mounts,
and better power supplies, and the OS is not constantly
writing to the disk.
Maybe 7 will be less drive-grinding. Maybe I just won't
buy a Dell again.

In news:1j7vejk.18lsdvu1vy89z4N%mark@mail.goguys.com,
Mark Shapiro typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 05:45:13 -0700:
> ... and the OS is not constantly writing to the disk.
> Maybe 7 will be less drive-grinding. Maybe I just won't
> buy a Dell again.

It is pretty easy to run Windows XP SP2 from RAM alone (like a Windows
Live like those Linux Live distros) and to have it stop writing to the
drive. I've done this is most of my computers here. As you can merge
Microsoft's EWF to any Windows XP SP2 system. Too bad they don't have
this under Vista or Windows 7 yet.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2

In news:4add7782$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net,
M.I.5¾ typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:41:04 +0100:
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock technology
>> and others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it to me.
>
> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one
> else uses.

Nope, MacBook's have their own anti-shock hardware and some even have
anti-shock hard drives coupled with the anti-shock hardware.

http://macs.about.com/b/2009/08/10/s...rpm-drives.htm

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2

In news:4add789c$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net,
M.I.5¾ typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:45:46 +0100:
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> And add to the idea that laptops are often used as portable devices.
>> Yet most of them use mechanical hard drives. And mechanical hard
>> drives makes for poor portable devices. As shock and vibrations
>> causes head and platter damage. Thus you can end up with a failed
>> hard drive. I also have been using mostly solid state drives (SSD)
>> for over a year now. So one less thing to worry about.
>
> Whilst I agree that hard disc drives would seem to be a poor choice
> for portable computers (laptops) due to the way they are used and
> handled, nevertheless, they do seem to be more reliable than one
> might expect. I have not had a laptop drive fail either at home or
> in the office.

You probably don't run them while you are moving them around. Those that
do, have suffered hard drive crashes. I remember when the iPod first
came out and they were having about 50% hard drive failures. They fixed
it I guess by incorporating antishock hardware into them. Thus shutting
down the hard drives to avoid damage.

I seem to recall a number of years ago somebody posted that they were a
computer tech who serviced laptops used in vehicles. It might have been
right here in this newsgroup. And they stated police cars for example
would need to replace the hard drives about once every two months.

So I do believe hard drives are poor choices in portable devices.
Although if you only power them up while the device is stationary, you
shouldn't have much of a problem. But then, they are only portable when
powered down, now are they not?

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:23:09 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

:>In news:4add7782$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net,
:>M.I.5¾ typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:41:04 +0100:
:>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
:>> news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
:>>> Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock technology
:>>> and others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it to me.
:>>
:>> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one
:>> else uses.
:>
:>Nope, MacBook's have their own anti-shock hardware and some even have
:>anti-shock hard drives coupled with the anti-shock hardware.
:>
:>http://macs.about.com/b/2009/08/10/s...rpm-drives.htm

I retired almost 4 years ago after spending my last 10 years working
as a Senior Tech at a Toshiba Premier ASP. At least a year before I
retired Toshiba was shipping some of their models with anti-shock
technology both in the hard drive and in the notebook itself.

me/2

In news:lpmvd55ooge65snprp9pm5g4gm39glrehs@4ax.com,
me/2 typed on Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:13:07 -0700:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:23:09 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>>> In news:4add7782$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net,
>>> M.I.5¾ typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:41:04 +0100:
>>>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
>>>> news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>> Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock technology
>>>>> and others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it to me.
>>>>
>>>> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one
>>>> else uses.
>>>
>>> Nope, MacBook's have their own anti-shock hardware and some even
>>> have anti-shock hard drives coupled with the anti-shock hardware.
>>>
>>> http://macs.about.com/b/2009/08/10/s...rpm-drives.htm
>
> I retired almost 4 years ago after spending my last 10 years working
> as a Senior Tech at a Toshiba Premier ASP. At least a year before I
> retired Toshiba was shipping some of their models with anti-shock
> technology both in the hard drive and in the notebook itself.
>
> me/2

That is very good to know. So far that makes Macs, IBM, and now Toshiba
using anti-shock technology. You would think everybody would be using
them.

So as a Senior Tech, how did you tell if a drive failed from shock or
general failure? And did you get a lot of drive failures in general?

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2

Somewhere on teh intarwebs BillW50 wrote:
> In news:4add7782$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net,
> M.I.5¾ typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:41:04 +0100:
>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
>> news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock technology
>>> and others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it to me.
>>
>> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one
>> else uses.
>
> Nope, MacBook's have their own anti-shock hardware and some even have
> anti-shock hard drives coupled with the anti-shock hardware.
>
> http://macs.about.com/b/2009/08/10/s...rpm-drives.htm

So do ThinkPads.
--
Shaun.

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Mark Shapiro wrote:
>> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one
>> else uses.
>
>
> I have found that Mac laptops have drives that are
> more protected with rubber or shock-absorbing mounts,
> and better power supplies, and the OS is not constantly
> writing to the disk.

Also they're better designed than your aveage $300 laptop with attention to
HDD temperature.

The biggest killer of HDDs (after shock) is high temperatures. A lot of
cheap laptops are poorly designed in that their HDDs often exceed the HDD
manufacturers specified maximum temperature (60 deg C for most Seagate
drives FI).

> Maybe 7 will be less drive-grinding. Maybe I just won't
> buy a Dell again.

If you spend more you get more. Also there's a neat little application that
I wouldn't do without on *any* machine I own called Hard Disk Sentinel. It
runs in the background and monitors your HDD temperature and SMART status.
It can sound an alarm if the temperature goes over a pre-set point or if the
disk is failing etc.
--
Shaun.

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.

Somewhere on teh intarwebs BillW50 wrote:
> In news:lpmvd55ooge65snprp9pm5g4gm39glrehs@4ax.com,
> me/2 typed on Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:13:07 -0700:
>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:23:09 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom>
>> wrote:
>>>> In news:4add7782$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net,
>>>> M.I.5¾ typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:41:04 +0100:
>>>>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>> Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock
>>>>>> technology and others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it
>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every
>>>>> one else uses.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, MacBook's have their own anti-shock hardware and some even
>>>> have anti-shock hard drives coupled with the anti-shock hardware.
>>>>
>>>> http://macs.about.com/b/2009/08/10/s...rpm-drives.htm
>>
>> I retired almost 4 years ago after spending my last 10 years working
>> as a Senior Tech at a Toshiba Premier ASP. At least a year before I
>> retired Toshiba was shipping some of their models with anti-shock
>> technology both in the hard drive and in the notebook itself.
>
> That is very good to know. So far that makes Macs, IBM, and now
> Toshiba using anti-shock technology. You would think everybody would
> be using them.

It adds to the cost of the laptop. Most punters don't want to pay the extra
few bucks for the premium model or the better brand.

In New Zealand there is an average ~20% price increase for an otherwise
identical HDD that has anti-shock protection over one without.

Cue a punter in a Best Buys looking at a laptop. He doesn't know that the
machine he just ruled out because it's $50 dearer has HDD protection as it's
too 'geeky' to be on the display so he buys the cheap one and then comes
here to complain when it turns to custard.
--
Shaun.

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.

> So as a Senior Tech, how did you tell if a drive failed from shock or
> general failure? And did you get a lot of drive failures in general?

On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 07:20:47 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

:>In news:lpmvd55ooge65snprp9pm5g4gm39glrehs@4ax.com,
:>me/2 typed on Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:13:07 -0700:
:>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:23:09 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
:>>
:>>>> In news:4add7782$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net,
:>>>> M.I.5¾ typed on Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:41:04 +0100:
:>>>>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
:>>>>> news:hbhtha$7o8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
:>>>>>> Unlucky? Well since MacBook's have their own anti-shock technology
:>>>>>> and others usually doesn't, pretty much explains it to me.
:>>>>>
:>>>>> I understood that Macs use the same hard disc drives that every one
:>>>>> else uses.
:>>>>
:>>>> Nope, MacBook's have their own anti-shock hardware and some even
:>>>> have anti-shock hard drives coupled with the anti-shock hardware.
:>>>>
:>>>> http://macs.about.com/b/2009/08/10/s...rpm-drives.htm
:>>
:>> I retired almost 4 years ago after spending my last 10 years working
:>> as a Senior Tech at a Toshiba Premier ASP. At least a year before I
:>> retired Toshiba was shipping some of their models with anti-shock
:>> technology both in the hard drive and in the notebook itself.
:>>
:>> me/2
:>
:>That is very good to know. So far that makes Macs, IBM, and now Toshiba
:>using anti-shock technology. You would think everybody would be using
:>them.
:>
:>So as a Senior Tech, how did you tell if a drive failed from shock or
:>general failure? And did you get a lot of drive failures in general?

Toshiba was very liberal as to replacing drives under warranty. If
there was no evidence of physical damage to the drive they would take
it back no questions asked.

As for failures in general it seemed to go in cycles. Usually when we
saw a lot of failures they tended to be the same exact drive in the
same model of notebook and were due to manufacturing defects or poor
notebook designs more than end user abuse. Also, we did have a class
of people that tended to close the lid and "throw" the notebook in
their bag while windows was still shutting down and before the hard
drive had time to fully spin down. The payback was that those kind of
people tended to be the ones that never backed up their data and when
the drive failed they were SOL. :-)

me/2