BillW50 typed on Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:41:09 -0500:

>UPDATE: Well apparently I was doing everything right,
>it just won't work from an USB to serial adapter so far.
>Funny the Palm IIIc works fine from this adapter
>through the sync cradle.

A little black magic is apparently involved. My AAA m125 is the oldest
of my Palms that I still use (the one for camping) and it came with
both serial and USB capabilities (depending on which cable you use) so
I haven't run into those problems on my new laptops.

>they only work with Windows 98 as Windows 2000
>changed the IR driver and the Palms will no longer
>communicate with them. This is so weird, since
>the Palm IIIc works just fine with the USB to serial adapter. <sigh>

Though I once had a laptop with IR I've never tried to sync with it.
More black magic I guess. If you really want to use the IIIxe it's
easy to transfer the synced files from the IIIc to the IIIxe by IR.
But if as I suspect you just like to play with the old Palms (as I do)
then keep at it and you will find a way... ;)

AJL <129@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

>"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>>You say if you haven't used it in awhile, it sounds like yours dumps the
>>volatile memory (RAM). What determines this? The battery level perhaps?
>
>My understanding is that the 10M stays full ('sleeping' when off) and
>new stuff pushes out old stuff. I'm don't remember how it is saved on
>a dead battery. There were some very good technical sites at the time
>on how this all worked but of course I can't find them now. I'll keep
>looking.

I'd forgotten that the new memory was called NVFS (Non Volatile File
System (of course)... ;) Google NVFS and you will find lots of
explanations. Here is an example:

"Normally, on a Palm OS handheld, all "internal" databases are stored
in regular RAM, and that RAM is kept alive by the battery, even when
the device is off. With NVFS, internal databases are stored in the
NAND Flash or hard drive - but since they can't be accessed directly,
they have to be loaded into RAM first.

The NVFS takes care of loading data from the NAND Flash into a RAM
buffer when needed. The RAM buffer available for user data is about 10
megabytes. When something from internal storage is needed, the NVFS
system loads that into a part of that 10 megabyte RAM buffer. If the
information is modified, then the NVFS system writes that buffer back
to the NVFS. This writing is done when a database is closed, and also
whenever the device goes into sleep mode, to make sure everything is
saved in case the battery runs all the way down."

Lifted from:
http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html

AJL <129@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

>AJL <129@fakeaddress.com> wrote:
>
>>"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>>>You say if you haven't used it in awhile, it sounds like yours dumps the
>>>volatile memory (RAM). What determines this? The battery level perhaps?

>>My understanding is that the 10M stays full ('sleeping' when off) and
>>new stuff pushes out old stuff.

And apparently the RAM does stay full as I remembered. Another lift:

"NVFS databases can't be accessed directly. Therefore Palm OS reserves
part of RAM called DbCache.

Prior to its use the databases are copied from NVFS to the DbCache and
after the use they are copied back (if changed).

DbCache gets subsequently filled because the databases are not
immediately purged from the DbCache, but (for performance reasons)
stay in the cache as long as there is enough space.

On T5 the DbCache has 10 MB and it is considered full when the free
space reaches approx. 1MB.

Full DbCache means slower data operations because of the increased
data exchange between the NVFS and the DbCache.

However, the user will generally notice it only when a large amount of
data is processed. (Such as e.g. backup of the whole memory.)

DbCache can be emptied only via reset."

http://www.resco.net/palm/explorer/NVFS.htm

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>AJL typed on Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:52:30 -0700:

>>Although a Palm battery blow-up
>> might not be quite as spectacular, unless of course the Palm was in
>> your pocket when it went.. 8-O
>
>I am not looking forward to that day. 8-O

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19512_7-10312537-233.html

In news:7pcm8590mthmiuffb6f0s0d2s5nbl2ckb5@4ax.com,
AJL typed on Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:09:34 -0700:
> I'd forgotten that the new memory was called NVFS (Non Volatile File
> System (of course)... ;) Google NVFS and you will find lots of
> explanations.

I find this all very interesting. I didn't know this about later Palms.
Pretty much how other OS deal with the lack of real RAM with a swapfile.
Although the Palm isn't actually using a swapfile, but the actual files
on the flash.

--
Bill
Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) - Windows XP SP2

In news:5hqm855i5kie7u2ruoom6egm5hrrnj8m4j@4ax.com,
AJL typed on Tue, 18 Aug 2009 19:59:38 -0700:
> http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19512_7-10312537-233.html

That isn't good! iPhones and others catching on fire. :(

--
Bill
Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) - Windows XP SP2

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>In news:7pcm8590mthmiuffb6f0s0d2s5nbl2ckb5@4ax.com,
>AJL typed on Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:09:34 -0700:
>> I'd forgotten that the new memory was called NVFS (Non Volatile File
>> System (of course)... ;) Google NVFS and you will find lots of
>> explanations.
>
>I find this all very interesting. I didn't know this about later Palms.
>Pretty much how other OS deal with the lack of real RAM with a swapfile.
>Although the Palm isn't actually using a swapfile, but the actual files
>on the flash.

IMO an ingenious system. Pretty much transparent to the user, ran most
of the pre-NVFS software (a few apps choked on it but not many),
easier on the battery (than if all that 100+ Meg of memory had to be
refreshed), and of course Palm's big selling point, a dead battery
wouldn't wipe the memory...

John Doue <notwobe******.com> writes:

>Well, all this is very interesting but I remain challenged by the
>following case:

>I own a Twinhead A9110 bought new back in 2000 whose battery is common
>to a Compaq model the name of which I forgot. Here is one example of
>site that sells it:
>> http://www.apexbattery.com/twinhead-...ry-b-5729.html
>Even back when I bought the machine, in the machine or out of it, the
>battery would discharge fully in about 2 weeks.

I have a Gateway W340UA laptop with the same problem. It's a dual-core
AMD Turion machine, perhaps 3 years old now. Gateway have provided 2
new batteries and one new motherboard, with no change at all in the
behaviour.

If I connect the laptop to a lab bench power supply set to the correct
voltage (19 V), I can see that it draws about 15 mA continuously from
external power when "off". I concluded that it draws on the order of
10-15 mA all the time when "off", and if it's not connected to AC then
it will draw this from the battery. That's about a 2-week discharge
time for a ~5 Ah battery.

Since it's apparently a bad design, not a bug in my machine, I decided
I'd just remove the battery before putting the machine away. That's a
little extra work, but no big deal. I only need the laptop when I'm
away from home, a few times a year at most. This avoids draining the
main battery, and everything seemed good - for about a year.

Then I tried to boot the machine and found that it wouldn't start at
all; it didn't even turn on the LCD backlight or appear to do much of
anything. The battery charging still worked, but the system wouldn't
run as a computer, from either AC or battery power. I gave up on it
for a while.

Months later, I tried again, and it booted again - but complained about
having to reset the CMOS settings to defaults. I now think that there
is a lithium battery on the motherboard that became discharged. As long
as the main battery was installed, the motherboard battery was drained
only during battery swaps, and probably would have lasted nearly
forever. Once I started removing the main battery for storage, the
motherboard battery eventually reached a state where the CMOS data was
corrupt, but not yet obviously corrupt - thus the boot failure.
Eventually, it got so bad that the BIOS realized the CMOS data was
garbage and reset it, and I could boot again.

So now I store the laptop with the main battery installed, and just
recharge it every 2 weeks. Yes, I realize this will put 25 charge
cycles a year on the battery, killing it early, but at least it keeps
the laptop usable when I need it. It seems that the alternatives are:
(a) open it up and replace the CMOS battery, or (b) keep it plugged in
all the time.

If I kept the laptop connected to AC power all the time, it would charge
the main battery once and then simply keep it there. Or I could remove
the main battery, and store it at 40% charge. But I don't have space to
keep a laptop connected to power all the time, while not using it.

>For fear I being unable to charge it again, I leave the machine on
>stand-by when I am away for an extended period of time.

You should still be able to charge the battery; the battery controller
should disconnect its outputs when the charge state gets low enough,
where there is still sufficient energy to accept a recharge.

>I have at least 3 batteries which I had kept in cool storage which are
>now useless because I cannot recharge them. A shame!

How long were they stored? A battery that's stored for a long time
without use might self-discharge to the point that the internal battery
controller won't run, or to the point where the cells are permanently
damaged. So you should periodically recharge batteries in storage.

But that shouldn't happen if you go on a 4-week trip. The battery
controller should disconnect from the laptop after 2 weeks, when its
charge drops to the bottom of the safe range, but the battery cells and
controller should still be ready for charging 2 weeks after that.

Dave

Dave Martindale wrote:
> John Doue <notwobe******.com> writes:
>
>> Well, all this is very interesting but I remain challenged by the
>> following case:
>
>> I own a Twinhead A9110 bought new back in 2000 whose battery is common
>> to a Compaq model the name of which I forgot. Here is one example of
>> site that sells it:
>>> http://www.apexbattery.com/twinhead-...ry-b-5729.html
>> Even back when I bought the machine, in the machine or out of it, the
>> battery would discharge fully in about 2 weeks.
>
> I have a Gateway W340UA laptop with the same problem. It's a dual-core
> AMD Turion machine, perhaps 3 years old now. Gateway have provided 2
> new batteries and one new motherboard, with no change at all in the
> behaviour.
>
> If I connect the laptop to a lab bench power supply set to the correct
> voltage (19 V), I can see that it draws about 15 mA continuously from
> external power when "off". I concluded that it draws on the order of
> 10-15 mA all the time when "off", and if it's not connected to AC then
> it will draw this from the battery. That's about a 2-week discharge
> time for a ~5 Ah battery.
>
> Since it's apparently a bad design, not a bug in my machine, I decided
> I'd just remove the battery before putting the machine away. That's a
> little extra work, but no big deal. I only need the laptop when I'm
> away from home, a few times a year at most. This avoids draining the
> main battery, and everything seemed good - for about a year.
>
> Then I tried to boot the machine and found that it wouldn't start at
> all; it didn't even turn on the LCD backlight or appear to do much of
> anything. The battery charging still worked, but the system wouldn't
> run as a computer, from either AC or battery power. I gave up on it
> for a while.
>
> Months later, I tried again, and it booted again - but complained about
> having to reset the CMOS settings to defaults. I now think that there
> is a lithium battery on the motherboard that became discharged. As long
> as the main battery was installed, the motherboard battery was drained
> only during battery swaps, and probably would have lasted nearly
> forever. Once I started removing the main battery for storage, the
> motherboard battery eventually reached a state where the CMOS data was
> corrupt, but not yet obviously corrupt - thus the boot failure.
> Eventually, it got so bad that the BIOS realized the CMOS data was
> garbage and reset it, and I could boot again.
>
> So now I store the laptop with the main battery installed, and just
> recharge it every 2 weeks. Yes, I realize this will put 25 charge
> cycles a year on the battery, killing it early, but at least it keeps
> the laptop usable when I need it. It seems that the alternatives are:
> (a) open it up and replace the CMOS battery, or (b) keep it plugged in
> all the time.
>
> If I kept the laptop connected to AC power all the time, it would charge
> the main battery once and then simply keep it there. Or I could remove
> the main battery, and store it at 40% charge. But I don't have space to
> keep a laptop connected to power all the time, while not using it.
>
>> For fear I being unable to charge it again, I leave the machine on
>> stand-by when I am away for an extended period of time.
>
> You should still be able to charge the battery; the battery controller
> should disconnect its outputs when the charge state gets low enough,
> where there is still sufficient energy to accept a recharge.
>
>> I have at least 3 batteries which I had kept in cool storage which are
>> now useless because I cannot recharge them. A shame!
>
> How long were they stored? A battery that's stored for a long time
> without use might self-discharge to the point that the internal battery
> controller won't run, or to the point where the cells are permanently
> damaged. So you should periodically recharge batteries in storage.
>
> But that shouldn't happen if you go on a 4-week trip. The battery
> controller should disconnect from the laptop after 2 weeks, when its
> charge drops to the bottom of the safe range, but the battery cells and
> controller should still be ready for charging 2 weeks after that.
>
> Dave
>
I was unable to recharge the batteries I had in storage because my
machine was beyond my control ... Now I have it back, I do not want to
experiment and see if the battery will recharge after being left alone 4
weeks ... the experiment might be to costly!

Yes, your problem with the cmos battery is typical of older machines. We
have to live with it or junk them ... !

--
John Doue

In news:h6tg7r$hsp$1@swain.cs.ubc.ca,
Dave Martindale typed on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:41:47 +0000 (UTC):
> I have a Gateway W340UA laptop with the same problem. It's a
> dual-core AMD Turion machine, perhaps 3 years old now. Gateway have
> provided 2 new batteries and one new motherboard, with no change at
> all in the behaviour...

Hi Dave! This is normal for Celeron based machines. Although this is the
first I heard for an AMD Turion. Since most of them place the CPU into
S3 mode correctly. Thus will drain the battery in 2 to 4 weeks. Both of
my Gateway Celerons and my five Asus 700 series netbooks does this. I
always remove the batteries if I am not using them. Since it is very
easy to pop in a battery when I need one, I don't find it a problem.

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

In news:h6u5p0$s3c$1@news.eternal-september.org,
BillW50 typed on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 08:49:18 -0500:
> Since most of them place the CPU into S3 mode correctly.

I mean most Celeron machines place the CPU into S3 mode *incorrectly*.
Sorry. I don't have a problem with CMOS/RTC batteries. Except my old
Toshiba 2595XDVD ('99 era) needs to be running with the internal screen
lit to charge the CMOS/RTC battery. Otherwise the battery will never
charge.

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> writes:
>In news:h6tg7r$hsp$1@swain.cs.ubc.ca,
>Dave Martindale typed on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:41:47 +0000 (UTC):
>> I have a Gateway W340UA laptop with the same problem. It's a
>> dual-core AMD Turion machine, perhaps 3 years old now. Gateway have
>> provided 2 new batteries and one new motherboard, with no change at
>> all in the behaviour...

>Hi Dave! This is normal for Celeron based machines. Although this is the
>first I heard for an AMD Turion. Since most of them place the CPU into
>S3 mode correctly. Thus will drain the battery in 2 to 4 weeks. Both of
>my Gateway Celerons and my five Asus 700 series netbooks does this.

You mean it puts the CPU into S3 sleep instead of turning the machine
off? It's supposed to be *off* - I selected shutdown, XP did its
shutdown thing (which is different from sleep), and the processor LED is
off, not flashing. Hibernate mode behaves the same way, except it saves
the RAM to disk first. But both continue to drain the battery.

>I
>always remove the batteries if I am not using them. Since it is very
>easy to pop in a battery when I need one, I don't find it a problem.

I would have agreed with you, until it got into a state where it
wouldn't boot at all after being stored batteryless for many months. I
don't want to find it back in that state just before a trip when I need
it.

Dave

Dave Martindale wrote:
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> writes:
>> In news:h6tg7r$hsp$1@swain.cs.ubc.ca,
>> Dave Martindale typed on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:41:47 +0000 (UTC):
>>> I have a Gateway W340UA laptop with the same problem. It's a
>>> dual-core AMD Turion machine, perhaps 3 years old now. Gateway have
>>> provided 2 new batteries and one new motherboard, with no change at
>>> all in the behaviour...
>
>> Hi Dave! This is normal for Celeron based machines. Although this is the
>> first I heard for an AMD Turion. Since most of them place the CPU into
>> S3 mode correctly. Thus will drain the battery in 2 to 4 weeks. Both of
>> my Gateway Celerons and my five Asus 700 series netbooks does this.
>
> You mean it puts the CPU into S3 sleep instead of turning the machine
> off? It's supposed to be *off* - I selected shutdown, XP did its
> shutdown thing (which is different from sleep), and the processor LED is
> off, not flashing. Hibernate mode behaves the same way, except it saves
> the RAM to disk first. But both continue to drain the battery.
>
>> I
>> always remove the batteries if I am not using them. Since it is very
>> easy to pop in a battery when I need one, I don't find it a problem.
>
> I would have agreed with you, until it got into a state where it
> wouldn't boot at all after being stored batteryless for many months. I
> don't want to find it back in that state just before a trip when I need
> it.
>
> Dave

My point, too.

--
John Doue

In news:h6vs89$l6f$1@swain.cs.ubc.ca,
Dave Martindale typed on Tue, 25 Aug 2009 05:19:05 +0000 (UTC):
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> writes:
>> In news:h6tg7r$hsp$1@swain.cs.ubc.ca,
>> Dave Martindale typed on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:41:47 +0000 (UTC):
>>> I have a Gateway W340UA laptop with the same problem. It's a
>>> dual-core AMD Turion machine, perhaps 3 years old now. Gateway have
>>> provided 2 new batteries and one new motherboard, with no change at
>>> all in the behaviour...
>
>> Hi Dave! This is normal for Celeron based machines. Although this is
>> the first I heard for an AMD Turion. Since most of them place the
>> CPU into S3 mode correctly. Thus will drain the battery in 2 to 4
>> weeks. Both of my Gateway Celerons and my five Asus 700 series
>> netbooks does this.
>
> You mean it puts the CPU into S3 sleep instead of turning the machine
> off? It's supposed to be *off* - I selected shutdown, XP did its
> shutdown thing (which is different from sleep), and the processor LED
> is off, not flashing. Hibernate mode behaves the same way, except it
> saves the RAM to disk first. But both continue to drain the battery.

No, I know what you are talking about. No all of the Celeron computers
does shuts down correctly (RAM shuts down, etc.), but the CPU itself
never does. And this causes a drain on the battery. CPUs nowadays don't
actually shutdown completely. As they wait for signals like wake on LAN,
ring from modem, etc. And Celeron CPU drains more in this state than
most other CPUs do. Thus the need to keep them on AC or to remove the
battery. It sounds like the AMD Turion has the same sort of problem.

>> I always remove the batteries if I am not using them. Since it is
>> very easy to pop in a battery when I need one, I don't find it a
>> problem.
>
> I would have agreed with you, until it got into a state where it
> wouldn't boot at all after being stored batteryless for many months.
> I don't want to find it back in that state just before a trip when I
> need it.

Sounds like your batteries has a high self drain. As most lithium
batteries can sit for years without a problem. They probably added some
sort of safety circuit inside of your battery pack which slowly drains
the battery in a short time. And it probably isn't active right after it
is manufactured. As they couldn't store them at all that way. As it
probably gets toggled on after first use.

However it works, it sounds like a very poor design to me. My Celeron
laptops/netbooks are bad enough and are well documented. But yours and
John's machines are far worse. <sigh>

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2

snip

BillW50 wrote:

snip
>
> However it works, it sounds like a very poor design to me. My Celeron
> laptops/netbooks are bad enough and are well documented. But yours and
> John's machines are far worse. <sigh>
>

Bill, my machine probably has nothing to do with the problem, since the
battery drains on its own out of the machine! Wish there were a
different and better battery that I could fit into into it!

--
John Doue