Removing the battery IS a good idea.

Storage in the refrigerator is really questionable, in my view. First,
in a ziploc bag, you could have a humidity problem (and, in the case of
Lithium batteries, that could be catastrophically bad). Second, if the
battery happens to freeze, it can also be ruined. It is THEORETICALLY
true that life is extended at lower temperatures as long as you don't go
below freezing. However, as a practical matter, as long as you are
dealing with the refrigerator vs. an air conditioned environment that
never gets above about the high 70's .... I don't think that there is
much PRACTICAL benefit.

The battery should be given some use 3 to 6 times a year. What I'd do
is charge it to 100%, then run it down to a mid-charge value. 40% may
be a tad on the low side, but 40% to 60% is about right (again, while
this is accepted best practice in theory, I'm not sure that the
differnece between storing at full charge vs. mid charge is all that
great (it's probably more than the difference between room temp. &
refrigeration, however).

You should not have to worry about either dust or corrosion.

FWIW, I have 14 old year old batteries here, stored at 100% charge and
room temperature, that still give good service. But it is absolutely
true that with MOST laptops, leaving it in a laptop that is plugged in
all the time will destroy the battery in 6 to 24 months. The culprits
can be a combination of both overcharging and overheating (heat
generated by other parts of the laptop), and both of these are design
dependent, and, therefore, model dependent. But best practice is to
remove the battery.

That said, if you do remove the battery, get a small UPS. For a laptop,
even a 300va UPS is adequate, and those can usually be had for $20-$30.



starved@rock.com wrote:
> Brand new Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop purchased last week. At this time
> the system will be used as a desktop, running on AC power continously.
>
> According to http://www.batteryuniversity.com and other sources,
> leaving the battery in - while always running on AC power and never on
> battery power - will shorten the life of the battery.
>
> So the battery's been removed, and with a 40% charge on it, it's in a
> ziplock bag and stored in the refrigerator.
>
> The plan is to remove it from storage after some time, put it back in
> the laptop, recharge it back up to 40%, and then store it in the
> refrigerator again. This cycle will be repeated indefinitely.
>
> My questions are:
>
> 1. How long can the battery remain stored in the refrigerator before
> it has to be recharged? One month? Two months?
>
> 2. Should I be concerned about corrosion of the contacts or dust
> buildup in an empty battery compartment?
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
>
> - Dave

Meat Plow wrote:

>
> Lithium Ion batteries have a finite number of charges. Has nothing to
> do with leaving it in the laptop while on AC provided the power
> functions of the laptop work as designed.

You are wrong on the 2nd part. Leaving a battery in a laptop run
continually on AC power generally destroys the battery.


Meat Plow wrote:

>
> Lithium Ion batteries have a finite number of charges. Has nothing to
> do with leaving it in the laptop while on AC provided the power
> functions of the laptop work as designed.

"Meat Plow" <meat@petitmorte.net> schreef in bericht
news:31tufd.krm.19.1@news.alt.net...
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:34:41 -0600, "Buffalo"
> <Eric@nada.com.invalid>wrote:
>
>>
>>Meat Plow wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 06:22:15 -0700 (PDT), starved@rock.comwrote:
>>>
>>>> Brand new Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop purchased last week. At this time
>>>> the system will be used as a desktop, running on AC power
>>>> continously.
>>>>
>>>> According to http://www.batteryuniversity.com and other sources,
>>>> leaving the battery in - while always running on AC power and never
>>>> on battery power - will shorten the life of the battery.
>>>>
>>>> So the battery's been removed, and with a 40% charge on it, it's in a
>>>> ziplock bag and stored in the refrigerator.
>>>>
>>>> The plan is to remove it from storage after some time, put it back in
>>>> the laptop, recharge it back up to 40%, and then store it in the
>>>> refrigerator again. This cycle will be repeated indefinitely.
>>>>
>>>> My questions are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. How long can the battery remain stored in the refrigerator before
>>>> it has to be recharged? One month? Two months?
>>>>
>>>> 2. Should I be concerned about corrosion of the contacts or dust
>>>> buildup in an empty battery compartment?
>>>>
>>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> - Dave
>>>
>>> Lithium Ion batteries have a finite number of charges. Has nothing to
>>> do with leaving it in the laptop while on AC provided the power
>>> functions of the laptop work as designed.
>>
>>From the link the OP supplied:
>
> <snip>
>
> Doesn't apply to my experience, YMMV. Refrigeration may increase the
> shelf life but the bottom line is still charge cycles.


Taking out battery = less charge cycles.



--
regards,

|\ /|
| \/ |@rk
\../
\/os

On Aug 13, 12:14*pm, "Christopher Muto" <m...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> no crossposting please. *this reply only to alt.sys.pc-clone.dell whereit
> was read.
>
> first of all i wonder if you are aware of how dated (old) the informationis
> on the web site that you referenced.
> it talks about really old types of battery technology that have not been
> shipped with new computers from any manufacturer in years.
> a battery in a zip lock bag kept in your fridge isn't going to help you if
> you plan on using your laptop like a laptop. *and if you are using your
> laptop as a desktop (plugged into the wall) there is always the chance of
> pulling the power cord out when the unit (or the cord) is moved... and
> without a battery installed in the machine that means you loose whatever you
> happen to be working on. *not using your battery also has a cost. *simply
> put, a battery is not like fine wine, it does not get better when left ona
> shelf to age. *use it or loose it. *what you spend on zip lock bags and in
> time juggling the battery in and out of the system and not having it charged
> when you actually need it will probably cost more in dollars and
> productivity than a replacement battery will cost you when you happen to
> need it.
>
> <star...@rock.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2a7b07e8-c255-4920-864d-20e4badc6352@s15g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Brand new Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop purchased last week. At this time
> > the system will be used as a desktop, running on AC power continously.
>
> > According tohttp://www.batteryuniversity.comand other sources,
> > leaving the battery in - while always running on AC power and never on
> > battery power - will shorten the life of the battery.
>
> > So the battery's been removed, and with a 40% charge on it, it's in a
> > ziplock bag and stored in the refrigerator.
>
> > The plan is to remove it from storage after some time, put it back in
> > the laptop, recharge it back up to 40%, and then store it in the
> > refrigerator again. This cycle will be repeated indefinitely.
>
> > My questions are:
>
> > 1. How long can the battery remain stored in the refrigerator before
> > it has to be recharged? One month? Two months?
>
> > 2. Should I be concerned about corrosion of the contacts or dust
> > buildup in an empty battery compartment?
>
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
>
> > - Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I can see there are differences in opinion on this topic. I appreciate
all who provided intelligent responses.

After careful consideration, I'm going to go with Barry Watzman's
advice.

- The battery will be stored at 60% state of charge.

- Instead of storing it in a refrigerator, it will be placed in a
drawer, in an air conditioned environment that never gets above about
the high 70's.

- The battery will be given some use 4 times a year. Every 3 months
it'll be charged it to 100%, then run down to 60%, then removed and
put back in storage.

Thanks again!

- Dave

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Meat Plow wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:52:46 -0600, "Buffalo"
> <Eric@nada.com.invalid>wrote:
>> Meat Plow wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:34:41 -0600, "Buffalo"
>>> <Eric@nada.com.invalid>wrote:
>>>> Meat Plow wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 06:22:15 -0700 (PDT), starved@rock.comwrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brand new Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop purchased last week. At this
>>>>>> time the system will be used as a desktop, running on AC power
>>>>>> continously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to http://www.batteryuniversity.com and other sources,
>>>>>> leaving the battery in - while always running on AC power and
>>>>>> never on battery power - will shorten the life of the battery.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the battery's been removed, and with a 40% charge on it, it's
>>>>>> in a ziplock bag and stored in the refrigerator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The plan is to remove it from storage after some time, put it
>>>>>> back in the laptop, recharge it back up to 40%, and then store
>>>>>> it in the refrigerator again. This cycle will be repeated
>>>>>> indefinitely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My questions are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. How long can the battery remain stored in the refrigerator
>>>>>> before it has to be recharged? One month? Two months?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Should I be concerned about corrosion of the contacts or dust
>>>>>> buildup in an empty battery compartment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> Lithium Ion batteries have a finite number of charges. Has nothing
>>>>> to do with leaving it in the laptop while on AC provided the power
>>>>> functions of the laptop work as designed.
>>>>
>>>> From the link the OP supplied:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Doesn't apply to my experience, YMMV. Refrigeration may increase the
>>> shelf life but the bottom line is still charge cycles.
>>
>> I agree with you on the charge cycles being finite and one of the
>> limiting factors.
>> Leaving it in the laptop subjects it to above room temps and
>> shortens its ability to regain its capacity.
>> The chart on the link posted by Dave was pretty enlightening.
>> Buffalo
>>
>
> Depends on where the battery is located. Don't assume all laptop
> battery packs are mounted close to sources of heat.
>
> On my two laptops the battery pack is up front away from heat sources.
> Both were new in 2004. Both still run 2 hours on a charge as they did
> 5 years ago. Both have remained attached for their entire life so far
> and show no appreciable decrease in capacity.
>
> There are plenty of arguments for and against removal while using as a
> desktop. I'm for removal as long as it doesn't compromise the laptop's
> physical well being like (but not limited to) allowing foreign objects
> to infiltrate or interfering with the laptop's electronics.

Not to mention cooling. If there are 'apertures' exposed by removing the
battery then air could be drawn in there when the fan is running,
effectively short-circuiting the 'cooling path' and allowing some components
to get too hot.

Luckilly for me my IBM/Lenovo T60 thinkPad (with an extended 9 cell battery)
that I only use on mains has software that allows you to set the parameters
for charging. (If not used as soon as charge drops to 95% then the battery
is topped off and one more cycle is aded to the count.

I have my battery set to only charge when it drops to 40% and then to stop
charging at 60%. As this machine (2.16GHz C2D T7400, 15" 4:3 IPS screen, 3GB
RAM, ATI X1400/128MB, 320GB 7200rpm HDD) is no low-powered glorified pocket
calculator it does use some power. I get 3.5 hours on a full charge so
figure that, if I need to take it with me without warning, I'll get between
one and just over two hours depending on where the battery level is within
my parameters. (I have a spare adapter in my laptop bag as well.) Also, I
hope that the battery will last longer than if it were constantly being
topped off from 95%.

I have a few power outages here so, with that taken into consideration,
would rather not run the machine batteryless. Having a battery is like
having a built-in UPS.
--
Shaun.

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.

The empirical evidence that leaving a battery in a laptop running off AC
is overwhelming. About 4 years ago there was a thread on this board
that went on for almost a year and involved thousands of posts, and as
someone who repairs laptops, I can tell you that we see this constantly.
Leave a battery in a laptop running on AC all the time, and you
destroy the battery without ever having really used it in 6 to 24 months.

The reasons, however, are not as clear.

The two factors most often cited are overcharging and heat. While, in
theory, a laptop should stop charging a battery once it's fully charged,
in practice many of them don't ... they apply a constant "trickle"
charge, that is harmful to the battery.

The other factor is heat; simply put, a battery left in a laptop that is
on AC all the time, and that is possibly running 8 to 24 hours per day,
is exposed to heat. Not necessarily internal heat from overcharging
(that can happen also) or even heat associated in any way with the
battery or it's charger, but simply heat from the CPU, the hard drive,
the memory and all of the other "stuff" that is inside a modern laptop.
Anyone who has put a laptop on your lap knows that modern laptops get
hot. And a battery in a modern laptop gets hot. And heat destroys
lithium ion batteries (hence the suggestion to refrigerate them, but
while theoretically valid, that may be practical overkill).

Both of these ... the design of the charging circuit and the thermal
design and layout of the laptop itself ... are model specific, so
exceptions may exist (probably do, in fact). But as a general rule ...
leaving a battery in a laptop being run all or essentially all of the
time from AC power is a good way to destroy it.


Linea Recta wrote:
> "Meat Plow" <meat@petitmorte.net> schreef in bericht
> news:31tufd.krm.19.1@news.alt.net...
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:34:41 -0600, "Buffalo"
>> <Eric@nada.com.invalid>wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Doesn't apply to my experience, YMMV. Refrigeration may increase the
>> shelf life but the bottom line is still charge cycles.
>
>
> Taking out battery = less charge cycles.
>
>
>

"~misfit~" <sore_n_happy******.com.au> wrote:

>If not used as soon as charge drops to 95% then the battery
>is topped off and one more cycle is added to the count.

That would be only 5% of one cycle added to the count. A charge cycle
occurs when 100% of a battery’s capacity is used. Let’s say you use
50% of your laptop’s battery one day, charge it overnight, and then
you use 50% of the battery again the next day. Even after charging it
back up again, you’ll have only had one charge cycle occur.

>I have my battery set to only charge when it drops to 40%

You may be shortening you battery life by setting it this way. Li-Ion
batteries prefer small partial discharges. And if you're just trying
to save charge cycles this won't help.

Barry Watzman wrote:
> You are wrong on the 2nd part. Leaving a battery in a laptop run
> continually on AC power generally destroys the battery.
>
snip

I appreciate the fact you qualified your statement with a "generally".
My experience with a TP 51 showed me that its power management system is
the almost perfect answer. I always leave my battery in it, although it
is almost always plugged to AC.

My battery did lose some capacity over time, but whatever you do with a
battery, this is to be expected.
--
John Doue

Somewhere on teh intarwebs AJL wrote:
> "~misfit~" <sore_n_happy******.com.au> wrote:
>
>> If not used as soon as charge drops to 95% then the battery
>> is topped off and one more cycle is added to the count.
>
> That would be only 5% of one cycle added to the count. A charge cycle
> occurs when 100% of a battery's capacity is used. Let's say you use
> 50% of your laptop's battery one day, charge it overnight, and then
> you use 50% of the battery again the next day. Even after charging it
> back up again, you'll have only had one charge cycle occur.

Ok. Cite please? Going by Lenovo's tech blogs I was lead to believe that any
charge cycle that takes the battery to 100% is counted.

>> I have my battery set to only charge when it drops to 40%
>
> You may be shortening you battery life by setting it this way. Li-Ion
> batteries prefer small partial discharges. And if you're just trying
> to save charge cycles this won't help.

Since reading the links here I've changed my charging parameters to 10% and
90%. I've read ****-loads on the subject, including a Lenovo blog about the
software and how best to use it.

Can you cite your claim about Li-Ion and small partial discharges? I mean,
all my recent cell phones have been Li-Ion and completely discharged each
time and I've never had to replace a battery before the phone. I know SLAs
like small partial discharges...

I'm just happy that, even though I don't use my T60 on batteries much (read:
at all yet) I have the extended 9 cell battery that protrudes out the back.
I'm sure that helps with keeping the whole cell pack cooler than a
completely enclosed battery pack would be. Add to that it's in a mini-dock
so is up off the desk by a good few centimetres and I have high hopes for
battery longevity.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.

Not as much as you might think. I have a bunch of 1995 to 1998 Toshiba
lithium batteries here that still give good service, can run a laptop
for 1-2 hours (which is about all that they did when new).

You say you lost capacity over time. But neither you nor I know if you
would, or would not, have lost that same capacity had you not left the
battery in the laptop (running on AC the whole time). The damage that
is often seen when this is done takes 6 to 24 months to essentially
destroy a battery. You may be well into a trip that you don't even yet
know that you are taking.


John Doue wrote:
>
>
> My battery did lose some capacity over time, but whatever you do with a
> battery, this is to be expected.

"~misfit~" <sore_n_happy******.com.au> wrote:

>Ok. Cite please? Going by Lenovo's tech blogs I was lead to believe that any
>charge cycle that takes the battery to 100% is counted.

"A charge cycle means using all of the battery’s power, but that
doesn’t necessarily mean a single charge. For instance, you could
listen to your iPod for a few hours one day, using half its power, and
then recharge it fully. If you did the same thing the next day, it
would count as one charge cycle, not two, so you may take several days
to complete a cycle."

http://www.apple.com/batteries/

--------------------------

"The life of a Lithium-Ion battery can be measured in charge cycles. A
charge cycle occurs when 100% of a battery’s capacity is used. Let’s
say you use 50% of your laptop’s battery one day, charge it overnight,
and then you use 50% of the battery again the next day. Even after
charging it back up again, you’ll have only had one charge cycle
occur."

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/helpdesk/?p=124

------------------------------

"let’s say you use only 20% per day and charge it, it will take you 5
days / 5 charges to consume one charge cycle, 5 x 20% = 100%. In the
same light, if you use to 50% everytime and charge it to full, you
will consume one charge cycle for every 2 times you charge it (Simple
maths: 50% x 2 = 100%)."

http://kipre.wordpress.com/2009/03/2...mer-batteries/


>Can you cite your claim about Li-Ion and small partial discharges?

"The Li-ion batteries prefer a shallow discharge. Partial discharges
produce less wear than a full discharge"

http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap10-page6.asp


>I mean, all my recent cell phones have been Li-Ion and completely discharged each
>time and I've never had to replace a battery before the phone.

Yea, I think all this put the battery in the fridge and taking it on
and off the laptop when on AC is a bit silly. I get laptops for one
thing, convenience. I have never worried about the battery much. If I
need to run it down I do. When at home it's on the charger so I'll be
topped off for the next excursion. So far the battery has outlasted my
desire for a new laptop... ;)

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:55:34 -0700, AJL <36@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

>"~misfit~" <sore_n_happy******.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Ok. Cite please? Going by Lenovo's tech blogs I was lead to believe that any
>>charge cycle that takes the battery to 100% is counted.
>
>"A charge cycle means using all of the battery’s power, but that
>doesn’t necessarily mean a single charge. For instance, you could
>listen to your iPod for a few hours one day, using half its power, and
>then recharge it fully. If you did the same thing the next day, it
>would count as one charge cycle, not two, so you may take several days
>to complete a cycle."
>
>http://www.apple.com/batteries/
>
>--------------------------
>
>"The life of a Lithium-Ion battery can be measured in charge cycles. A
>charge cycle occurs when 100% of a battery’s capacity is used. Let’s
>say you use 50% of your laptop’s battery one day, charge it overnight,
>and then you use 50% of the battery again the next day. Even after
>charging it back up again, you’ll have only had one charge cycle
>occur."
>
> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/helpdesk/?p=124
>
>------------------------------
>
>"let’s say you use only 20% per day and charge it, it will take you 5
>days / 5 charges to consume one charge cycle, 5 x 20% = 100%. In the
>same light, if you use to 50% everytime and charge it to full, you
>will consume one charge cycle for every 2 times you charge it (Simple
>maths: 50% x 2 = 100%)."
>
>http://kipre.wordpress.com/2009/03/2...mer-batteries/


Wow, what a crap!

There are some really nasty potholes on that electric road, I dare say.

1. If you load a battery and then unload it, there IS a difference at which
level and which timeline and which temperature curve you do it.

2. If you see at the not so obvious details, you will see that the above
descriptions mean to FULLY load a battery and then discharge it completely
before charging it again.

That is a TOTALLY different way of handling than to work in the range of
50-100 percent capacity.

The problem is that one cannot say how much capacity is left in the the
battery at morning and if that capacity will suffice for the day.
So one HAS TO charge the batttery to FULL. This now is NOT as is described
in the texts above!


So, a load cycle in the manufacturer's description gives a totally different
picture (longer time of use) than one can achieve in real life.

--
**** WARNING **** The web-hoster Globat.com steals money from your
credit card account. If you are a customer of Globat.com, never give
them any credit card information. If you can't erase the information,
then do delete the old card and get a new one! **** WARNING ****

Barry Watzman wrote:
> Not as much as you might think. I have a bunch of 1995 to 1998 Toshiba
> lithium batteries here that still give good service, can run a laptop
> for 1-2 hours (which is about all that they did when new).
>
> You say you lost capacity over time. But neither you nor I know if you
> would, or would not, have lost that same capacity had you not left the
> battery in the laptop (running on AC the whole time). The damage that
> is often seen when this is done takes 6 to 24 months to essentially
> destroy a battery. You may be well into a trip that you don't even yet
> know that you are taking.
>
>
> John Doue wrote:
>>
>>
>> My battery did lose some capacity over time, but whatever you do with
>> a battery, this is to be expected.
If it were not for the price of replacement batteries, I like to travel
unchartered areas :-)

--
John Doue

In news:kcthm.37$eJ6.23@read4.inet.fi,
John Doue typed on Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:11:12 GMT:
> Barry Watzman wrote:
>> Not as much as you might think. I have a bunch of 1995 to 1998
>> Toshiba lithium batteries here that still give good service, can run
>> a laptop for 1-2 hours (which is about all that they did when new).
>>
>> You say you lost capacity over time. But neither you nor I know if
>> you would, or would not, have lost that same capacity had you not
>> left the battery in the laptop (running on AC the whole time). The
>> damage that is often seen when this is done takes 6 to 24 months to
>> essentially destroy a battery. You may be well into a trip that you
>> don't even yet know that you are taking.
>>
>>
>> John Doue wrote:
>>> My battery did lose some capacity over time, but whatever you do
>>> with a battery, this is to be expected.
>
> If it were not for the price of replacement batteries, I like to
> travel unchartered areas :-)

What do you want me to check out John? I have three Gateway MX6124
batteries (two laptops) and six Asus EeePC batteries (five EeePCs). I
usually only use one of each model, so I have plenty to do tests on.
Even for the long haul.

--
Bill
Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) - Windows XP SP2