In news:l16u75dn045oaouq9uv4cf1c56jie0utgj@4ax.com,
Happy Oyster typed on Sun, 09 Aug 2009 19:40:58 +0100:
> So there actually is NO netbook with no fans one could buy. The
> expensive ones are too over-priced and the other ones are a risk to
> buy.

Not so! One of the cheapest netbooks that you can buy (which also
happens to be the first netbooks) are the Asus EeePC 700 series line.
They use the Intel Celeron 900 CPU and clock them down to 633MHz. You
can clock them back up by the way. But they use the keyboard as a
heatsink (very clever) and heatsinks the CPU, southbridge, and
northbridge chips. Which all lives on the topside of the motherboard.

There is a fan on the bottom side of the motherboard and doesn't hardly
provide any airflow for the topside at all. I have even tested the CPU
temperature with the fan manually controlled at different speeds and not
running period. And it has almost no effect on the top of the
motherboard.

And the only things on the bottom side of the motherboard is the RAM,
WiFi, and some versions SSD (solid state drive). Does any of them really
need a fan running? Apparently not, as there are countless people
reporting on the eeeuser forum of running their EeePC with the fans
disconnected without any harm (so far).

I have five of these things and all of them generally run the CPU at
131°F (55°C) pretty much constantly, regardless of what the CPU use is.
And it should be able to operate the CPU up 30°F (17°C) higher without
any problems. Which is indeed very hard to do normally.

--
Bill
Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) - Windows XP SP2

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>Happy Oyster typed
>> So there actually is NO netbook with no fans one could buy.

>Not so!

>One of the cheapest netbooks that you can buy (which also
>happens to be the first netbooks) are the Asus EeePC 700 series...
>There is a fan on the bottom side of the motherboard...

You contradict yourself Bill. If the 700 has a fan then your corrected
answer should be *Is so*.

>and doesn't hardly provide any airflow for the topside at all.

My Eee PC 2G Surf netbook has the same chassis and bottom fan
arrangement as your 700 series Eee PC netbook. When my fan comes on
the bottom of the netbook becomes noticeably cooler to the touch. Mr.
Oyster pointed out that less heat is better for the longevity of the
electronic parts. That might be why cost conscious Asus used the extra
bucks to put a fan in these otherwise stripped down to bare essentials
netbooks...

>There are countless people...running their EeePC with the fans
>disconnected without any harm (so far).

I'm glad you added the words "so far"... ;)

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 13:49:39 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>In news:l16u75dn045oaouq9uv4cf1c56jie0utgj@4ax.com,
>Happy Oyster typed on Sun, 09 Aug 2009 19:40:58 +0100:
>> So there actually is NO netbook with no fans one could buy. The
>> expensive ones are too over-priced and the other ones are a risk to
>> buy.
>
>Not so! One of the cheapest netbooks that you can buy (which also
>happens to be the first netbooks) are the Asus EeePC 700 series line.
>They use the Intel Celeron 900 CPU and clock them down to 633MHz. You
>can clock them back up by the way. But they use the keyboard as a
>heatsink (very clever) and heatsinks the CPU, southbridge, and
>northbridge chips. Which all lives on the topside of the motherboard.
>
>There is a fan on the bottom side of the motherboard and doesn't hardly
>provide any airflow for the topside at all. I have even tested the CPU
>temperature with the fan manually controlled at different speeds and not
>running period. And it has almost no effect on the top of the
>motherboard.
>
>And the only things on the bottom side of the motherboard is the RAM,
>WiFi, and some versions SSD (solid state drive). Does any of them really
>need a fan running? Apparently not, as there are countless people
>reporting on the eeeuser forum of running their EeePC with the fans
>disconnected without any harm (so far).
>
>I have five of these things and all of them generally run the CPU at
>131°F (55°C) pretty much constantly, regardless of what the CPU use is.
>And it should be able to operate the CPU up 30°F (17°C) higher without
>any problems. Which is indeed very hard to do normally.


I mean NO FANS AT ALL. And that is valid only for one netbook by Dell, one
netbook in two versions (Linux, Windows) by a Chines manufacturer, and some
really expensive machines above 2000 USD.

--
Homöopathische Kindesmißhandlung

http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_kind.htm

In news:jaku751uquggsbgr2pga45d8raebmh7t7h@4ax.com,
AJL typed on Sun, 09 Aug 2009 16:07:29 -0700:
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>> Happy Oyster typed
>>> So there actually is NO netbook with no fans one could buy.
>
>> Not so!
>
>> One of the cheapest netbooks that you can buy (which also
>> happens to be the first netbooks) are the Asus EeePC 700 series...
>> There is a fan on the bottom side of the motherboard...
>
> You contradict yourself Bill. If the 700 has a fan then your corrected
> answer should be *Is so*.

Well being an electronic engineer myself, I have to wonder about what
others are doing sometimes. As I remember machines that has a fan which
isn't even needed at all. And other machines without a fan and they end
up cooking themselves.

And when I mention the 700 series, I often forget to exclude the 700
model with a Celeron 800 microprocessor (vs. the Celeron 900). As you
have told me they get very hot. Those the other models in the 700 series
does not get hot in my experience, even with the fan disconnected.

So IMHO, the 700 series 4G and 8G models really doesn't need a fan at
all. They probably threw it in there with the 2G models and just left it
in there. I heard that eeectl utility is now available for Xandros too.
And it would be nice if you ran it and see how hot that Celeron 800
heats up to.

>> and doesn't hardly provide any airflow for the topside at all.
>
> My Eee PC 2G Surf netbook has the same chassis and bottom fan
> arrangement as your 700 series Eee PC netbook. When my fan comes on
> the bottom of the netbook becomes noticeably cooler to the touch. Mr.
> Oyster pointed out that less heat is better for the longevity of the
> electronic parts. That might be why cost conscious Asus used the extra
> bucks to put a fan in these otherwise stripped down to bare essentials
> netbooks...

Actually your 2G has soldered in ram and a slightly slower processor. If
yours gets as hot as you say and my five EeePCs does not, there has to
be a reason for this. Do you run it on AC with the battery installed? I
usually do not, maybe that helps right there. As it requires 10 more
watts of power to charge the battery with the netbook running. And the
voltage regulators are pushing 20 watts of power that way. And the way I
run them, they only push 10 watts of power while the netbook is running.
Thus maybe why mine runs cooler.

>> There are countless people...running their EeePC with the fans
>> disconnected without any harm (so far).
>
> I'm glad you added the words "so far"... ;)

Well I added that because I have a Toshiba T1950CS from '94 that didn't
have a fan (486SX-25). That thing would get very hot and I thought about
adding my own fan. Apparently I waited too long, as it cooked itself in
5 years. Then when I tried to find spare parts, I learned that so do
everybody else's T1950CS. And there are no working spare power regulator
boards because they all have been cooked.

So I am thinking the same thing might happen with those who have
disconnected their EeePC fans. I guess we have to wait another 3 or 4
years to learn for sure. But even if they do die, it would be time to
buy another one anyway for most people (if not earlier). <grin>

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 15:46:57 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>Well being an electronic engineer myself, I have to wonder about what
>others are doing sometimes.

A machine WITHOUT ANY FAN is important in an absolutely quiet environment.

Taking out a fan of a computer which is designed TO HAVE a fan is rediculous.

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In news:mr518559hpjaaclo5s67pc1fqotuv4av7i@4ax.com,
Happy Oyster typed on Mon, 10 Aug 2009 22:57:47 +0100:
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 15:46:57 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>> Well being an electronic engineer myself, I have to wonder about what
>> others are doing sometimes.
>
> A machine WITHOUT ANY FAN is important in an absolutely quiet
> environment.

I totally agree! And I have gotten used to SSD (solid state drives) and
I never realized how annoying those HDD drives can be. I've been using
SSD so much I am now very sensitive to the HDD noise.

> Taking out a fan of a computer which is designed TO HAVE a fan is
> rediculous.

Ah you assume too much! In some cases believe it or not, some things are
over-engineered. It is very common in military and professional
equipment and done all of the time. It is rarely seen in consumer
equipment, but it still *does* happen from time to time. Also it is hard
to argue against those who has had their fans disconnected for 2 years
now.

Remember too, I am predicting that they will run fine without a fan
until the ambient temperature reaches 95°F (35°C). These things are
designed in the far east where the temperature reaches this and higher.
Where I live, these temps are very rare and I probably wouldn't be in
such conditions anyway running a netbook. As we turn on the air
conditioner. <grin>

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people who are
doing it. -- Anonymous

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>So IMHO, the 700 series 4G and 8G models really
>doesn't need a fan at all.

If *all* the components (not just the processor) feel no hotter than
just *moderately warm* to the touch while running *all* the circuitry
(WiFi, charging, ports, HD, ect) while running full out (several apps
and video) with no cooling for say a 30 minute test then I might
agree...

>I heard that eeectl utility is now available for Xandros too.
>And it would be nice if you ran it and see how hot that Celeron 800
>heats up to.

Do you know the repository?

>Actually your 2G has soldered in ram

That shouldn't make much of a temperature difference.

>and a slightly slower processor.

I think it's just under 600 MHz.

>Do you run it on AC with the battery installed?

Nope, always portable.

>I guess we have to wait another 3 or 4 years to learn for sure.
>But even if they [Eee PC with disconnected fans] do die...

I wouldn't worry about 3 or 4 years. They'll be antiques by then... ;)

In news:h16185talqpjbu2j84mjakfg1gkfgnreep@4ax.com,
AJL typed on Mon, 10 Aug 2009 15:39:39 -0700:
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>> So IMHO, the 700 series 4G and 8G models really
>> doesn't need a fan at all.
>
> If *all* the components (not just the processor) feel no hotter than
> just *moderately warm* to the touch while running *all* the circuitry
> (WiFi, charging, ports, HD, ect) while running full out (several apps
> and video) with no cooling for say a 30 minute test then I might
> agree...

Well it has to be something, as 4G and 8G users have disconnected their
fans and all is well (so far). Although I haven't noticed if any 2G
users have disconnected their fans, have you?

>> I heard that eeectl utility is now available for Xandros too.
>> And it would be nice if you ran it and see how hot that Celeron 800
>> heats up to.
>
> Do you know the repository?

Offhand no. Although I should add it to my Xandros machine. So if I find
it before you I'll post it.

>> Actually your 2G has soldered in ram
>
> That shouldn't make much of a temperature difference.

I know, but I am thinking they knew the RAM couldn't be upgraded and
couldn't use more power... and so they could borderline the regulation
supply to put out much less power. And the 2G can't be upgraded either.
So a stock 2G system could be operating at borderline with the
regulation components as it is. And maybe the 4G and 8G models they
couldn't pull this off and used higher rated components.

>> and a slightly slower processor.
>
> I think it's just under 600 MHz.

I believe it is 5xx MHZ for the under clocked speed. But the processor
is 800MHZ I believe. The 4G and 8G models uses a 900MHZ processor, but
under clocks them down to 633MHZ. I have ramped them back up to 900MHZ
with eeectl and they get hotter. But normally you don't see much of a
difference unless you are running something that will max out the
processor anyway.

>> Do you run it on AC with the battery installed?
>
> Nope, always portable.

Oh okay.

>> I guess we have to wait another 3 or 4 years to learn for sure.
>> But even if they [Eee PC with disconnected fans] do die...
>
> I wouldn't worry about 3 or 4 years. They'll be antiques by then... ;)

Well one of mine I dropped in a 16G SSD. And it does run Windows 7, so
at least three of mine (which the SSD can be upgraded) might be still
useful 3 to 4 years from now.

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:52:21 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>Ah you assume too much!

I have seen too many bad engineered computers. As netbooks are at the edge of
what can be done in such small volumes I estimate them to be made to last about
the time of the guarantee - and not a day longer.

So, anything which could raise the temperature will lead to an early death of
the machine, and that WITHOUT guarantee as that will be void.

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"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>Although I haven't noticed if any 2G
>users have disconnected their fans, have you?

I haven't seen anything recently on mods for the 2G fan. I'll hit the
eeeuser group later and see what I can find.

>I know, but I am thinking they knew the RAM couldn't be upgraded and
>couldn't use more power...

I think the RAM in the 2G is soldered in because the netbook was
cheaper to make. Also there is no trap door on the bottom, more
savings...

>I believe it is 5xx MHZ for the under clocked speed. But the processor
>is 800MHZ I believe.

Celeron-M 800 MHz operating at 571 MHz (Looked it up.)

>Well one of mine I dropped in a 16G SSD. And it does run Windows 7, so
>at least three of mine (which the SSD can be upgraded) might be still
>useful 3 to 4 years from now.

Oh they all will probably work in 3-4 years, its just that they will
be antiques. Other than my Toshiba T-1000 I've never had a laptop
fail. I always seem to end up giving the old ones to a grandkid... ;)

In news:9ue185l2gboatvo8ut3nvtvt5ltfeem6rh@4ax.com,
Happy Oyster typed on Tue, 11 Aug 2009 01:31:06 +0100:
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:52:21 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>> Ah you assume too much!
>
> I have seen too many bad engineered computers. As netbooks are at the
> edge of what can be done in such small volumes I estimate them to be
> made to last about the time of the guarantee - and not a day longer.
>
> So, anything which could raise the temperature will lead to an early
> death of the machine, and that WITHOUT guarantee as that will be void.

I too have heard those horror stories of others laptops breaking right
after the warrantee expires. Although my first laptop was back in '84
and I bought 11 more in the past 25 years. And just like AJL, the only
one that died was one Toshiba from the 90's. All the rest of them are
still working just like the day I bought them. Some of them the
batteries are near dead or are, but that is normal after a decade or two
anyway.

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 05:20:01 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>In news:9ue185l2gboatvo8ut3nvtvt5ltfeem6rh@4ax.com,
>Happy Oyster typed on Tue, 11 Aug 2009 01:31:06 +0100:
>> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:52:21 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah you assume too much!
>>
>> I have seen too many bad engineered computers. As netbooks are at the
>> edge of what can be done in such small volumes I estimate them to be
>> made to last about the time of the guarantee - and not a day longer.
>>
>> So, anything which could raise the temperature will lead to an early
>> death of the machine, and that WITHOUT guarantee as that will be void.
>
>I too have heard those horror stories of others laptops breaking right
>after the warrantee expires. Although my first laptop was back in '84
>and I bought 11 more in the past 25 years. And just like AJL, the only
>one that died was one Toshiba from the 90's. All the rest of them are
>still working just like the day I bought them. Some of them the
>batteries are near dead or are, but that is normal after a decade or two
>anyway.

So the engineers are very stupid who put in those ventilators???

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In news:eel285pc0cje5vef6thh3827gqmdvdnpfe@4ax.com,
Happy Oyster typed on Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:28:40 +0100:
> On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 05:20:01 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>> In news:9ue185l2gboatvo8ut3nvtvt5ltfeem6rh@4ax.com,
>> Happy Oyster typed on Tue, 11 Aug 2009 01:31:06 +0100:
>>> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:52:21 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ah you assume too much!
>>>
>>> I have seen too many bad engineered computers. As netbooks are at
>>> the edge of what can be done in such small volumes I estimate them
>>> to be made to last about the time of the guarantee - and not a day
>>> longer.
>>>
>>> So, anything which could raise the temperature will lead to an early
>>> death of the machine, and that WITHOUT guarantee as that will be
>>> void.
>>
>> I too have heard those horror stories of others laptops breaking
>> right after the warrantee expires. Although my first laptop was back
>> in '84 and I bought 11 more in the past 25 years. And just like AJL,
>> the only one that died was one Toshiba from the 90's. All the rest
>> of them are still working just like the day I bought them. Some of
>> them the batteries are near dead or are, but that is normal after a
>> decade or two anyway.
>
> So the engineers are very stupid who put in those ventilators???

Not necessarily. It depends on the environment it is operating in. And
the design seems IMHO to control the fan speed totally dependently on
the CPU temperature. Right now my room is 75°F and the CPU temperature
is at 123°F. And the fan won't even start automatically until the
temperature hits around 127°F.

And that is super slow speed which most of the time you can't even hear
it in a totally quiet room. That is the speed all of mine (five) usually
runs at in automatic mode. Rarely does one of them ever jump up to the
next second speed up (there are a total of eight speed steps). And never
have I seen automatic mode kick in the last 6 higher speed modes.

So you should be okay without a fan IMHO with these 700 series 4G and 8G
models until the room temperature reaches 95°F or the CPU temp hits
about 160°F. This is also inline with Intel's specs as well.

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 06:52:07 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>> So the engineers are very stupid who put in those ventilators???
>
>Not necessarily. It depends on the environment it is operating in.

Not all of us live in Greenland.

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In news:spr285pmuo40ranue628lnjg3nl7f0gk0p@4ax.com,
Happy Oyster typed on Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:17:09 +0100:
> On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 06:52:07 -0500, "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>
>>> So the engineers are very stupid who put in those ventilators???
>>
>> Not necessarily. It depends on the environment it is operating in.
>
> Not all of us live in Greenland.

The Germany I remember doesn't often reach 35°C either.

--
Bill
Windows 2000 SP4 (5.00.2195)
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC