A friend has an old Compaq Presario 3015 whose hard disk started failing
until the laptop could not boot (it would ask to run chkdsk every time,
then just cycled through coming back to the safe mode menu selection).

I tried re-formatting (not the quick format) and re-installing WinXP, but
the process was extremely slow and the computer would either hang or
power off during the process. So I replaced the HDD with a brand new
identical one (80 GB EIDE) and re-installed WinXP. The installation went
without a hitch until the laptop rebooted, after which it began randomly
powering off again.

I used the original recovery CDs to restore the laptop to its original
installation, but after it's done I get "hard disk boot sector invalid"
and Windows won't boot up. Strange thing is, I tried recovering on the
old drive, and the exact same thing happens. So it appears the old drive
may not have been to blame after all.

Is this the IDE interface gone bad?

The computer's BIOS won't allow booting from USB (and no BIOS update is
available), or I would have devised a way to run from an external USB
drive. His only solution seems to be an expensive repair on a 5-year-old
laptop, or an even more expensive new computer.

Any ideas?


jaybee

In news:Xns9C349385EA02Fjebouchard451yahooca@216.151. 153.68,
Jacques E. Bouchard typed on 24 Jun 2009 18:30:08 GMT:
> A friend has an old Compaq Presario 3015 whose hard disk started
> failing until the laptop could not boot (it would ask to run chkdsk
> every time, then just cycled through coming back to the safe mode
> menu selection).
>
> I tried re-formatting (not the quick format) and re-installing WinXP,
> but the process was extremely slow and the computer would either hang
> or power off during the process. So I replaced the HDD with a brand
> new identical one (80 GB EIDE) and re-installed WinXP. The
> installation went without a hitch until the laptop rebooted, after
> which it began randomly powering off again.
>
> I used the original recovery CDs to restore the laptop to its original
> installation, but after it's done I get "hard disk boot sector
> invalid" and Windows won't boot up. Strange thing is, I tried
> recovering on the old drive, and the exact same thing happens. So it
> appears the old drive may not have been to blame after all.
>
> Is this the IDE interface gone bad?
>
> The computer's BIOS won't allow booting from USB (and no BIOS update
> is available), or I would have devised a way to run from an external
> USB drive. His only solution seems to be an expensive repair on a
> 5-year-old laptop, or an even more expensive new computer.
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> jaybee

Hi jaybee! For starters, forget Windows and most Linux versions running
from an USB drive. It is possible, but for Windows for example requires
3 pages of registry hacks. The reason? Windows resets the USB ports in
the middle of loading and it will hang without the hacks to stop it.
Those Live versions (distros) of Linux should run fine from an USB
drive. Others probably won't though.

As for why the internal HDD (hard drive) isn't working and that error.
That error sounds like the MBR (main boot record) is corrupt. They are
many ways to build a new one. There are some free utilities out there
that can do this. Also a real Windows install disk or even a Windows 9x
Startup floppy.

If that fixes it, something is corrupting the MBR. If it doesn't, the
IDE controller is likely shot. Or something in the BIOS setup is set
wrong. I would create a new MBR first. There are no boot managers or
other OS installed right? Or any of those programs that hooks in that
allows the computer to see larger HDD, right? If not to either, you are
okay to recreate a new MBR.

--
Bill
Windows XP Home SP3 (5.1.2600)
Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

This sounds like the machine has a bad motherboard; that is not certain,
it's a good guess, but in these cases you usually can only deduce the
cause by eliminating other possible causes.

If there is nothing particularly imporant about this laptop, the best
solution is to sell it on E-Bay for parts, being honest about it's
condition. If you want to fix THIS laptop rather than just getting
another laptop, the best answer is to look for a laptop of the same
model on E-Bay that is working or that has a broken screen, or, possibly
just a motherboard from such a laptop. The cost of "repairing" a bad
motherboard in a 5-year old laptop should not exceed about $50 if you
can do the actual work yourself and just need the parts (e.g. a new
motherboard).


Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
> A friend has an old Compaq Presario 3015 whose hard disk started failing
> until the laptop could not boot (it would ask to run chkdsk every time,
> then just cycled through coming back to the safe mode menu selection).
>
> I tried re-formatting (not the quick format) and re-installing WinXP, but
> the process was extremely slow and the computer would either hang or
> power off during the process. So I replaced the HDD with a brand new
> identical one (80 GB EIDE) and re-installed WinXP. The installation went
> without a hitch until the laptop rebooted, after which it began randomly
> powering off again.
>
> I used the original recovery CDs to restore the laptop to its original
> installation, but after it's done I get "hard disk boot sector invalid"
> and Windows won't boot up. Strange thing is, I tried recovering on the
> old drive, and the exact same thing happens. So it appears the old drive
> may not have been to blame after all.
>
> Is this the IDE interface gone bad?
>
> The computer's BIOS won't allow booting from USB (and no BIOS update is
> available), or I would have devised a way to run from an external USB
> drive. His only solution seems to be an expensive repair on a 5-year-old
> laptop, or an even more expensive new computer.
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> jaybee

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in news:h1tspp$j1j$1@news.eternal-
september.org:

> As for why the internal HDD (hard drive) isn't working and that error.
> That error sounds like the MBR (main boot record) is corrupt. They are
> many ways to build a new one. There are some free utilities out there
> that can do this. Also a real Windows install disk or even a Windows 9x
> Startup floppy.
>
> If that fixes it, something is corrupting the MBR. If it doesn't, the
> IDE controller is likely shot. Or something in the BIOS setup is set
> wrong. I would create a new MBR first. There are no boot managers or
> other OS installed right? Or any of those programs that hooks in that
> allows the computer to see larger HDD, right? If not to either, you are
> okay to recreate a new MBR.

I thought about the MBR, but a clean install of WinXP would take care of
that (dring the installation process I created a new partition and
formatted it), as well as restoring the disk image from the original CDs.

I reset the BIOS to its defaults at one point to make sure that wasn't
the problem, but it made no difference.

Considering that two drives (one old, one brand new) both behaved the
same way, I too tend to suspect the IDE controller.


jaybee

"Jacques E. Bouchard" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9C35B0B54E08jebouchard451yahooca@8.17.249. 161...
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in news:h1tspp$j1j$1@news.eternal-
> I thought about the MBR, but a clean install of WinXP would take care of
> that (dring the installation process I created a new partition and
> formatted it), as well as restoring the disk image from the original CDs.
>
> I reset the BIOS to its defaults at one point to make sure that wasn't
> the problem, but it made no difference.
>
> Considering that two drives (one old, one brand new) both behaved the
> same way, I too tend to suspect the IDE controller.
>
>

When you partitioned the drive , did you set the partition as "active" ?

In news:Xns9C35B0B54E08jebouchard451yahooca@8.17.249. 161,
Jacques E. Bouchard typed on 25 Jun 2009 05:05:09 GMT:
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in news:h1tspp$j1j$1@news.eternal-
> september.org:
>
>> As for why the internal HDD (hard drive) isn't working and that
>> error. That error sounds like the MBR (main boot record) is corrupt.
>> They are many ways to build a new one. There are some free utilities
>> out there that can do this. Also a real Windows install disk or even
>> a Windows 9x Startup floppy.
>>
>> If that fixes it, something is corrupting the MBR. If it doesn't, the
>> IDE controller is likely shot. Or something in the BIOS setup is set
>> wrong. I would create a new MBR first. There are no boot managers or
>> other OS installed right? Or any of those programs that hooks in that
>> allows the computer to see larger HDD, right? If not to either, you
>> are okay to recreate a new MBR.
>
> I thought about the MBR, but a clean install of WinXP would take care
> of that (dring the installation process I created a new partition and
> formatted it), as well as restoring the disk image from the original
> CDs.

Yes a clean install does recreate a new MBR. But something could be
modifying it. As it seems to stick for awhile and then poof, right?

> I reset the BIOS to its defaults at one point to make sure that wasn't
> the problem, but it made no difference.

Most BIOS uses flash memory. And sometimes flash fails. Thus either the
settings won't stick very long or not at all. A weak RTC battery can
also cause similar symptoms, but it is rare it does.

I just worked on an EeePC 702 that couldn't read the SSD (solid state
drive). And I couldn't flash the BIOS either. Pulled the SSD out and
popped a new one and everything worked again. I could even flash the
BIOS. Weird that the BIOS needs a working drive just to flash the BIOS.
Who would have guessed that one?

> Considering that two drives (one old, one brand new) both behaved the
> same way, I too tend to suspect the IDE controller.

Yup, you are probably right. Although I wouldn't write it off yet. ;-)

--
Bill
Windows XP Home SP3 (5.1.2600)
Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC

BillW50 wrote:
> In news:Xns9C35B0B54E08jebouchard451yahooca@8.17.249. 161,
> Jacques E. Bouchard typed on 25 Jun 2009 05:05:09 GMT:
>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in news:h1tspp$j1j$1@news.eternal-
>> september.org:
>>
>>> As for why the internal HDD (hard drive) isn't working and that
>>> error. That error sounds like the MBR (main boot record) is corrupt.
>>> They are many ways to build a new one. There are some free utilities
>>> out there that can do this. Also a real Windows install disk or even
>>> a Windows 9x Startup floppy.
>>>
>>> If that fixes it, something is corrupting the MBR. If it doesn't, the
>>> IDE controller is likely shot. Or something in the BIOS setup is set
>>> wrong. I would create a new MBR first. There are no boot managers or
>>> other OS installed right? Or any of those programs that hooks in that
>>> allows the computer to see larger HDD, right? If not to either, you
>>> are okay to recreate a new MBR.
>> I thought about the MBR, but a clean install of WinXP would take care
>> of that (dring the installation process I created a new partition and
>> formatted it), as well as restoring the disk image from the original
>> CDs.
>
> Yes a clean install does recreate a new MBR. But something could be
> modifying it. As it seems to stick for awhile and then poof, right?
>
>> I reset the BIOS to its defaults at one point to make sure that wasn't
>> the problem, but it made no difference.
>
> Most BIOS uses flash memory. And sometimes flash fails. Thus either the
> settings won't stick very long or not at all. A weak RTC battery can
> also cause similar symptoms, but it is rare it does.
>
> I just worked on an EeePC 702 that couldn't read the SSD (solid state
> drive). And I couldn't flash the BIOS either. Pulled the SSD out and
> popped a new one and everything worked again. I could even flash the
> BIOS. Weird that the BIOS needs a working drive just to flash the BIOS.
> Who would have guessed that one?
>
>> Considering that two drives (one old, one brand new) both behaved the
>> same way, I too tend to suspect the IDE controller.
>
> Yup, you are probably right. Although I wouldn't write it off yet. ;-)
>
Personally I would try a linux live CD (Knoppix) and see how it performs
and whether or not it detects your hard drive, and whether or not you
can read/write to it...Even going so far as to try and installing knoppix.

Failed Windows install can also point to faulty RAM, which can display
some of your symptoms as well (slow install. shutdown during process)...

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in news:h2057t$9bi$1@news.eternal-
september.org:

> Yes a clean install does recreate a new MBR. But something could be
> modifying it. As it seems to stick for awhile and then poof, right?

Not really. During a clean XP install, it happens after the first reboot
(when entering the key, configuring time zone, keyboard language, etc.).

When restoring from the original CDs, it happens after it finishes with the
last disk and tries to reboot.


jaybee

ggwillikers <noone@youknow.com> wrote in
news:h20a7t$5l8$1@news.eternal-september.org:

> Failed Windows install can also point to faulty RAM, which can display
> some of your symptoms as well (slow install. shutdown during
> process)...

The problem started appearing as a request to run chkdsk when booting up
the computer. It got gradually worse until Windows wouldn't start anymore.


jaybee

I think that is incorrect; I think that a clean install does NOT
necessarily create a new MBR.

You have some options when you do an install; you can use an existing
partition (with either a "full" format or a "quick" format) or you can
delete and/or create new partitions. But NONE of those actions replaces
the MBR, which is a portion of the drive itself and not of any one
particular partition (each partition has it's own boot record, but those
are separate from the MASTER boot record). I don't know that ANY of the
options when doing an install from an XP CD rewrites the master boot
record, although several of them will rewrite the partition boot record.

The only two ways that I know of to be sure that you get a new MBR are:

1. Run the old MS-DOS FDISK program using the /MBR option .... this
explicitly rewrites the MBR

2. Run a program the blows away the MBR, which will leave the drive
without an MBR, forcing it to be recreated to install any OS. The
program that I use to do this is "ZAP", which was an IBM program that
was, at one time, originally on the IBM (later Hitachi) web site, but it
seems to have been removed. It writes binary 00's to the first several
cylinders of the drive.


BillW50 wrote:

>
> Yes a clean install does recreate a new MBR. But something could be
> modifying it. As it seems to stick for awhile and then poof, right?
>
>> I reset the BIOS to its defaults at one point to make sure that wasn't
>> the problem, but it made no difference.
>
> Most BIOS uses flash memory. And sometimes flash fails. Thus either the
> settings won't stick very long or not at all. A weak RTC battery can
> also cause similar symptoms, but it is rare it does.
>
> I just worked on an EeePC 702 that couldn't read the SSD (solid state
> drive). And I couldn't flash the BIOS either. Pulled the SSD out and
> popped a new one and everything worked again. I could even flash the
> BIOS. Weird that the BIOS needs a working drive just to flash the BIOS.
> Who would have guessed that one?
>
>> Considering that two drives (one old, one brand new) both behaved the
>> same way, I too tend to suspect the IDE controller.
>
> Yup, you are probably right. Although I wouldn't write it off yet. ;-)
>

Barry Watzman wrote:
> I think that is incorrect; I think that a clean install does NOT
> necessarily create a new MBR.
>
> You have some options when you do an install; you can use an existing
> partition (with either a "full" format or a "quick" format) or you can
> delete and/or create new partitions. But NONE of those actions replaces
> the MBR, which is a portion of the drive itself and not of any one
> particular partition (each partition has it's own boot record, but those
> are separate from the MASTER boot record). I don't know that ANY of the
> options when doing an install from an XP CD rewrites the master boot
> record, although several of them will rewrite the partition boot record.
>
> The only two ways that I know of to be sure that you get a new MBR are:
>
> 1. Run the old MS-DOS FDISK program using the /MBR option .... this
> explicitly rewrites the MBR
>
> 2. Run a program the blows away the MBR, which will leave the drive
> without an MBR, forcing it to be recreated to install any OS. The
> program that I use to do this is "ZAP", which was an IBM program that
> was, at one time, originally on the IBM (later Hitachi) web site, but it
> seems to have been removed. It writes binary 00's to the first several
> cylinders of the drive.
>
>
> BillW50 wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes a clean install does recreate a new MBR. But something could be
>> modifying it. As it seems to stick for awhile and then poof, right?
>>
>>> I reset the BIOS to its defaults at one point to make sure that wasn't
>>> the problem, but it made no difference.
>>
>> Most BIOS uses flash memory. And sometimes flash fails. Thus either
>> the settings won't stick very long or not at all. A weak RTC battery
>> can also cause similar symptoms, but it is rare it does.
>>
>> I just worked on an EeePC 702 that couldn't read the SSD (solid state
>> drive). And I couldn't flash the BIOS either. Pulled the SSD out and
>> popped a new one and everything worked again. I could even flash the
>> BIOS. Weird that the BIOS needs a working drive just to flash the
>> BIOS. Who would have guessed that one?
>>
>>> Considering that two drives (one old, one brand new) both behaved the
>>> same way, I too tend to suspect the IDE controller.
>>
>> Yup, you are probably right. Although I wouldn't write it off yet. ;-)
>>
Barry,

I tend to agree with you. And if memory serves, Compaq is (was) one of
those manufacturers which made a point of doing things differently with
regards to hard disks MBR, same as IBM with Thinkpads.

The symptoms the OP described appear to me as typical of HD failure and
I am not convinced what was attempted is enough to decide the IDE
controller is shot.

As you suggest, I would run first chkdsk /mbr on a new HD in that
machine before attempting a new install of Windows.

--
John Doue

You are correct in that, at times, on some models (and, at times, on all
models in the case of Compaq) they used a non-standard boot scheme with
non-standard boot records.

Compaq wanted to get around the fact that the "MBR" only allows 4
partitions on a drive, period (which has been the case from the original
IBM PC-XT in 1982 to this day).

I'm not sure what IBM was doing, but I know that if you took a drive out
of some IBM Thinkpads and put it into another machine, or if you took a
drive formatted in a non-Thinkpad and put it into some Thinkpads, the
drive geometry was not seen the same, and file and drive corruption
would occur as a consequence.

John Doue wrote:
> Barry Watzman wrote:
>> I think that is incorrect; I think that a clean install does NOT
>> necessarily create a new MBR.
>>
>> You have some options when you do an install; you can use an existing
>> partition (with either a "full" format or a "quick" format) or you can
>> delete and/or create new partitions. But NONE of those actions
>> replaces the MBR, which is a portion of the drive itself and not of
>> any one particular partition (each partition has it's own boot record,
>> but those are separate from the MASTER boot record). I don't know
>> that ANY of the options when doing an install from an XP CD rewrites
>> the master boot record, although several of them will rewrite the
>> partition boot record.
>>
>> The only two ways that I know of to be sure that you get a new MBR are:
>>
>> 1. Run the old MS-DOS FDISK program using the /MBR option .... this
>> explicitly rewrites the MBR
>>
>> 2. Run a program the blows away the MBR, which will leave the drive
>> without an MBR, forcing it to be recreated to install any OS. The
>> program that I use to do this is "ZAP", which was an IBM program that
>> was, at one time, originally on the IBM (later Hitachi) web site, but
>> it seems to have been removed. It writes binary 00's to the first
>> several cylinders of the drive.
>>
>>
>> BillW50 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes a clean install does recreate a new MBR. But something could be
>>> modifying it. As it seems to stick for awhile and then poof, right?
>>>
>>>> I reset the BIOS to its defaults at one point to make sure that wasn't
>>>> the problem, but it made no difference.
>>>
>>> Most BIOS uses flash memory. And sometimes flash fails. Thus either
>>> the settings won't stick very long or not at all. A weak RTC battery
>>> can also cause similar symptoms, but it is rare it does.
>>>
>>> I just worked on an EeePC 702 that couldn't read the SSD (solid state
>>> drive). And I couldn't flash the BIOS either. Pulled the SSD out and
>>> popped a new one and everything worked again. I could even flash the
>>> BIOS. Weird that the BIOS needs a working drive just to flash the
>>> BIOS. Who would have guessed that one?
>>>
>>>> Considering that two drives (one old, one brand new) both behaved the
>>>> same way, I too tend to suspect the IDE controller.
>>>
>>> Yup, you are probably right. Although I wouldn't write it off yet. ;-)
>>>
> Barry,
>
> I tend to agree with you. And if memory serves, Compaq is (was) one of
> those manufacturers which made a point of doing things differently with
> regards to hard disks MBR, same as IBM with Thinkpads.
>
> The symptoms the OP described appear to me as typical of HD failure and
> I am not convinced what was attempted is enough to decide the IDE
> controller is shot.
>
> As you suggest, I would run first chkdsk /mbr on a new HD in that
> machine before attempting a new install of Windows.
>

Barry Watzman wrote:
> You are correct in that, at times, on some models (and, at times, on all
> models in the case of Compaq) they used a non-standard boot scheme with
> non-standard boot records.
>
> Compaq wanted to get around the fact that the "MBR" only allows 4
> partitions on a drive, period (which has been the case from the original
> IBM PC-XT in 1982 to this day).

I was not aware they had this in mind. To your knowledge, did they
manage to get more than 4 partitions on a drive? I do not know what
IBM's goal was; I'd be curious to know if Lenovo has continued this
practice.
>
> I'm not sure what IBM was doing, but I know that if you took a drive out
> of some IBM Thinkpads and put it into another machine, or if you took a
> drive formatted in a non-Thinkpad and put it into some Thinkpads, the
> drive geometry was not seen the same, and file and drive corruption
> would occur as a consequence.

I never experienced file corruption, because the drive cannot be
accessed in the standard way. Just at boot time, you get a geometry
error message and the machine does not boot. That is very frustrating
when you have to deal both with TP and "regular" laptop drives.

--
John Doue

Yes, some Compaq machines were able to support more than 4 partitions.

John Doue wrote:
> Barry Watzman wrote:
>> You are correct in that, at times, on some models (and, at times, on
>> all models in the case of Compaq) they used a non-standard boot scheme
>> with non-standard boot records.
>>
>> Compaq wanted to get around the fact that the "MBR" only allows 4
>> partitions on a drive, period (which has been the case from the
>> original IBM PC-XT in 1982 to this day).
>
> I was not aware they had this in mind. To your knowledge, did they
> manage to get more than 4 partitions on a drive? I do not know what
> IBM's goal was; I'd be curious to know if Lenovo has continued this
> practice.
>>
>> I'm not sure what IBM was doing, but I know that if you took a drive
>> out of some IBM Thinkpads and put it into another machine, or if you
>> took a drive formatted in a non-Thinkpad and put it into some
>> Thinkpads, the drive geometry was not seen the same, and file and
>> drive corruption would occur as a consequence.
>
> I never experienced file corruption, because the drive cannot be
> accessed in the standard way. Just at boot time, you get a geometry
> error message and the machine does not boot. That is very frustrating
> when you have to deal both with TP and "regular" laptop drives.
>

Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in news:h23jcr$o4k$1
@news.eternal-september.org:

> I think that is incorrect; I think that a clean install does NOT
> necessarily create a new MBR.
>
> You have some options when you do an install; you can use an existing
> partition (with either a "full" format or a "quick" format) or you can
> delete and/or create new partitions. But NONE of those actions replaces
> the MBR, which is a portion of the drive itself and not of any one
> particular partition (each partition has it's own boot record, but those
> are separate from the MASTER boot record).

But what if you start from scratch on a brand new, sealed HD, as I did? How
could the MBR be corrupted on that?


jaybee