http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge

This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB 1GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux

Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used almost
daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room temperature.
Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and verified by actual
run time, is only 15%.

I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.



"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
news:gfsooe$t50$1@nntp.motzarella.org...
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge

This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB 1GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux

Val wrote:
> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used almost
> daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room temperature.
> Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and verified by actual
> run time, is only 15%.
>
> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.
>
>
>
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:gfsooe$t50$1@nntp.motzarella.org...
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge
>
> This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.
>

I believe a lot depends on the laptop power management, and physical
configuration.

If, as in my R51 Thinkpad, the battery does not get exposed, or very
little, to the heat generated by the machine, and its power management
prevents unnecessary charging (IBM power management prevents the battery
from being recharged if, while in use, its capacity remains over a user
adjustable threshold), then the loss of capacity will be slow.

On the other hand, on my old Twinhead 9110, the battery gets warm due to
the heat of the components next to it and whatever I do, it loses
capacity fairly fast, which is frustrating given the cost of a new one.

So, on my R51, removing the battery while connected to the mains is
really not necessary, while on my Twinhead, it is probably a good idea
if I make sure the battery is between 40 and 50% charged when I remove it.

--
John Doue

John Doue wrote on Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:14:14 GMT:
> Val wrote:
>> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used
>> almost daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room
>> temperature. Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and
>> verified by actual run time, is only 15%.
>>
>> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.

>>
>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
>> news:gfsooe$t50$1@nntp.motzarella.org...
>> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge
>>
>> This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.
>
> I believe a lot depends on the laptop power management, and physical
> configuration.
>
> If, as in my R51 Thinkpad, the battery does not get exposed, or very
> little, to the heat generated by the machine, and its power management
> prevents unnecessary charging (IBM power management prevents the battery
> from being recharged if, while in use, its capacity remains over a user
> adjustable threshold), then the loss of capacity will be slow.
>
> On the other hand, on my old Twinhead 9110, the battery gets warm due to
> the heat of the components next to it and whatever I do, it loses
> capacity fairly fast, which is frustrating given the cost of a new one.
>
> So, on my R51, removing the battery while connected to the mains is
> really not necessary, while on my Twinhead, it is probably a good idea
> if I make sure the battery is between 40 and 50% charged when I remove it.

Yes how the charger reacts to recharging makes a big difference. Some of
my older Toshiba laptops work as follows. Never remove the AC or the
battery, it gets charged once and then never again unless the AC or the
battery is disconnected for a second. Then it will repeat.

My Palm IIIc is strange. It will only charge (left on AC all of the
time) in the middle of the night. As the charge light will be on like
from 1AM to 3AM every night. It must trickle charge it and the charge is
topped off at 4.10v per cell (it only has one cell).

My Gateway MX6124 waits until the capacity drops down to 96% before it
will recharge the battery. I normally leave the batteries out of these
two, so I don't have any longevity data on them. And I have three batteries.

Although I love the idea of setting the charge level like some laptops
can. As I would set it up say keep the capacity level between 40 to 50%
or so. That would be perfect for me. Although since I have nothing like
that, I leave my spares out and just charge them up once or twice a year.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB 1GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux

Val wrote:
> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used almost
> daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room temperature.
> Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and verified by actual
> run time, is only 15%.
>
> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.
>
>
>
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:gfsooe$t50$1@nntp.motzarella.org...
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge
>
> This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.
>

I believe a lot depends on the laptop power management, and physical
configuration.

If, as in my R51 Thinkpad, the battery does not get exposed, or very
little, to the heat generated by the machine, and its power management
prevents unnecessary charging (IBM power management prevents the battery
from being recharged if, while in use, its capacity remains over a user
adjustable threshold), then the loss of capacity will be slow.

On the other hand, on my old Twinhead 9110, the battery gets warm due to
the heat of the components next to it and whatever I do, it loses
capacity fairly fast, which is frustrating given the cost of a new one.

So, on my R51, removing the battery while connected to the mains is
really not necessary, while on my Twinhead, it is probably a good idea
if I make sure the battery is between 40 and 50% charged when I remove it.

--
John Doue

John Doue wrote on Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:14:14 GMT:
> Val wrote:
>> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used
>> almost daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room
>> temperature. Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and
>> verified by actual run time, is only 15%.
>>
>> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.

>>
>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
>> news:gfsooe$t50$1@nntp.motzarella.org...
>> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge
>>
>> This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.
>
> I believe a lot depends on the laptop power management, and physical
> configuration.
>
> If, as in my R51 Thinkpad, the battery does not get exposed, or very
> little, to the heat generated by the machine, and its power management
> prevents unnecessary charging (IBM power management prevents the battery
> from being recharged if, while in use, its capacity remains over a user
> adjustable threshold), then the loss of capacity will be slow.
>
> On the other hand, on my old Twinhead 9110, the battery gets warm due to
> the heat of the components next to it and whatever I do, it loses
> capacity fairly fast, which is frustrating given the cost of a new one.
>
> So, on my R51, removing the battery while connected to the mains is
> really not necessary, while on my Twinhead, it is probably a good idea
> if I make sure the battery is between 40 and 50% charged when I remove it.

Yes how the charger reacts to recharging makes a big difference. Some of
my older Toshiba laptops work as follows. Never remove the AC or the
battery, it gets charged once and then never again unless the AC or the
battery is disconnected for a second. Then it will repeat.

My Palm IIIc is strange. It will only charge (left on AC all of the
time) in the middle of the night. As the charge light will be on like
from 1AM to 3AM every night. It must trickle charge it and the charge is
topped off at 4.10v per cell (it only has one cell).

My Gateway MX6124 waits until the capacity drops down to 96% before it
will recharge the battery. I normally leave the batteries out of these
two, so I don't have any longevity data on them. And I have three batteries.

Although I love the idea of setting the charge level like some laptops
can. As I would set it up say keep the capacity level between 40 to 50%
or so. That would be perfect for me. Although since I have nothing like
that, I leave my spares out and just charge them up once or twice a year.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB 1GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux

Doesn't wear mean a lessened ability to take/hold a charge? If the battery,
at present full charge, runs less time than it did when new, isn't that
runtime difference the amount of wear?

As to "citation needed", I interpret that to indicate a lack of validation
of what's posted on the wiki. Doesn't mean it's not true, just not yet
supported by evidence. Thus, not be trusted (or rather, to trusted less than
one might trust other wiki entries.)

Whereas my Gateway laptop, which gets a lot of use on battery, still has a
high percentage of its new capacity, my iPod sucks. It drains away so fast
just sitting unusedI can see the electrons piling up on the floor.

"M.I.5¾" <no.one@no.where.NO_SPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:492525a4_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

"Val" <vmanes@NOSPAMrap.midco.net> wrote in message
news:yO-dnYowtqhe1L_UnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@midco.net...
> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used almost
> daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room temperature.
> Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and verified by actual
> run time, is only 15%.
>
> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.
>

Wear and charge are different things.

The "citation needed" is there for a good reason.

Doesn't wear mean a lessened ability to take/hold a charge? If the battery,
at present full charge, runs less time than it did when new, isn't that
runtime difference the amount of wear?

As to "citation needed", I interpret that to indicate a lack of validation
of what's posted on the wiki. Doesn't mean it's not true, just not yet
supported by evidence. Thus, not be trusted (or rather, to trusted less than
one might trust other wiki entries.)

Whereas my Gateway laptop, which gets a lot of use on battery, still has a
high percentage of its new capacity, my iPod sucks. It drains away so fast
just sitting unusedI can see the electrons piling up on the floor.

"M.I.5¾" <no.one@no.where.NO_SPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:492525a4_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

"Val" <vmanes@NOSPAMrap.midco.net> wrote in message
news:yO-dnYowtqhe1L_UnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@midco.net...
> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used almost
> daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room temperature.
> Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and verified by actual
> run time, is only 15%.
>
> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.
>

Wear and charge are different things.

The "citation needed" is there for a good reason.

I also don't agree with Bill. But, that said, there is a lot of unit to
unit (really model to model) variation. What can kill a battery is a
combination of overcharging and heat (either from within the battery or
from external sources). Some laptops are well designed in these
regards, others, however are not (I'd say that most are not, based on
experience). The best advice for a laptop to be used in a predominantly
non-mobile, almost always on AC application is to remove the battery (if
you need a UPS, get a UPS. A $30 ups is cheaper than a $200 lithium
battery).


Val wrote:
> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used almost
> daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room temperature.
> Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and verified by actual
> run time, is only 15%.
>
> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.
>
>
>
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:gfsooe$t50$1@nntp.motzarella.org...
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge
>
> This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.
>
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Barry Watzman wrote:
> I also don't agree with Bill. But, that said, there is a lot of unit to
> unit (really model to model) variation. What can kill a battery is a
> combination of overcharging and heat (either from within the battery or
> from external sources). Some laptops are well designed in these
> regards, others, however are not (I'd say that most are not, based on
> experience).

What Li-Ion battery chargers over charge the battery? As over charging
Li-Ion batteries could cause the battery to explode. This is a big
no-no! So I seriously doubt any laptop is over charging batteries.

And that 20% per year was quoted at room temperature and keeping the
battery voltage charged to 4.2v per cell. And that is what I have found
too. Change either or, and my results would be different too.

> The best advice for a laptop to be used in a predominantly
> non-mobile, almost always on AC application is to remove the battery (if
> you need a UPS, get a UPS. A $30 ups is cheaper than a $200 lithium
> battery).

I too feel the same way. Although I seem to recall M.I.5¾ believing that
Li-Ion lasts longer if they get some occasional use (I personally can't
say either way on that one). But I feel this is true of lead acid
batteries, but M.I.5¾ disagrees with me there.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB 1GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux

I also don't agree with Bill. But, that said, there is a lot of unit to
unit (really model to model) variation. What can kill a battery is a
combination of overcharging and heat (either from within the battery or
from external sources). Some laptops are well designed in these
regards, others, however are not (I'd say that most are not, based on
experience). The best advice for a laptop to be used in a predominantly
non-mobile, almost always on AC application is to remove the battery (if
you need a UPS, get a UPS. A $30 ups is cheaper than a $200 lithium
battery).


Val wrote:
> Tell that to my three year old battery, kept in the laptop, used almost
> daily, put back on AC so it stays topped off, stored at room temperature.
> Battery wear, as indicated by mobilemeter program, and verified by actual
> run time, is only 15%.
>
> I see an awful lot of "citation needed" in that wiki.
>
>
>
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:gfsooe$t50$1@nntp.motzarella.org...
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Battery...ure_and_charge
>
> This also agrees with my own personal experience as well.
>
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:

>What can kill a battery is a
>combination of overcharging and heat (either from within the battery or
>from external sources). Some laptops are well designed in these
>regards, others, however are not.

>(I'd say that most are not, based on experience).

Rather a poor supposition don't you think? The number of laptops that
are poorly designed in your "experience" must be minuscule compared to
the thousands of other models in service.

But if you disagree I'll just add that in my 'experience' I've never
had to replace a laptop battery, and I usually leave them plugged in
all the time. When I want to pick up and go, I want to pick up and go,
and not have to hunt up a battery that I probably forgot to charge
recently... ;)

Barry Watzman wrote:
> I also don't agree with Bill. But, that said, there is a lot of unit to
> unit (really model to model) variation. What can kill a battery is a
> combination of overcharging and heat (either from within the battery or
> from external sources). Some laptops are well designed in these
> regards, others, however are not (I'd say that most are not, based on
> experience).

What Li-Ion battery chargers over charge the battery? As over charging
Li-Ion batteries could cause the battery to explode. This is a big
no-no! So I seriously doubt any laptop is over charging batteries.

And that 20% per year was quoted at room temperature and keeping the
battery voltage charged to 4.2v per cell. And that is what I have found
too. Change either or, and my results would be different too.

> The best advice for a laptop to be used in a predominantly
> non-mobile, almost always on AC application is to remove the battery (if
> you need a UPS, get a UPS. A $30 ups is cheaper than a $200 lithium
> battery).

I too feel the same way. Although I seem to recall M.I.5¾ believing that
Li-Ion lasts longer if they get some occasional use (I personally can't
say either way on that one). But I feel this is true of lead acid
batteries, but M.I.5¾ disagrees with me there.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB 1GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux

Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:

>What can kill a battery is a
>combination of overcharging and heat (either from within the battery or
>from external sources). Some laptops are well designed in these
>regards, others, however are not.

>(I'd say that most are not, based on experience).

Rather a poor supposition don't you think? The number of laptops that
are poorly designed in your "experience" must be minuscule compared to
the thousands of other models in service.

But if you disagree I'll just add that in my 'experience' I've never
had to replace a laptop battery, and I usually leave them plugged in
all the time. When I want to pick up and go, I want to pick up and go,
and not have to hunt up a battery that I probably forgot to charge
recently... ;)

"John Doue" <notwobe******.com> wrote in message
news:JvdVk.144$jw1.66@read4.inet.fi...
> M.I.5¾ wrote:
>> "AJL" <nomail@fakeaddress.com> wrote in message
>> news:scu6i4d4o7pkc10l84ujm8ajts6ejk7am3@4ax.com...
>>> Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What can kill a battery is a
>>>> combination of overcharging and heat (either from within the battery or
>>> >from external sources). Some laptops are well designed in these
>>>> regards, others, however are not.
>>>> (I'd say that most are not, based on experience).
>>> Rather a poor supposition don't you think? The number of laptops that
>>> are poorly designed in your "experience" must be minuscule compared to
>>> the thousands of other models in service.
>>>
>> Actually, I rather agree with the poster you replied to. Poorly designed
>> in this case means placing heat generating components such as the hard
>> disc drive or processor near to the battery such that it warms up in use.
>> From what I can tell, little consideration is given to the temperature
>> problems of the battery and if a laptop design is encountered that
>> doesn't significantly heat the battery, then it is more by luck than any
>> design requirement. The laptop makers have no real vested interest in
>> protecting the battery from the effects of heat - not at a $100-200 a go.
> You are most probably right for most laptops. However, I believe that
> business series pay more attention to such matters since they need to
> convince big accounts managers of the quality / reliability of their
> products.
>

If the laptops used in this business environment are anything to go by, this
would not seem to be the case. But having said that, the life of batteries
used in a business environment are far more likely to be determined by the
number of charge/dicharge cycles. Using the battery every day on the train
to/from the office complete with a recharge will wear the battery out in
well under a year (300 or so full cycles).

> Whichever way we look at the battery issue, I find it unconscionable that
> battery replacement would be so expensive compared to the price of laptop.
> Is it the same issue as printer cartridges or is there a really valid
> reason for those sky high prices?
>

The price of the battery is certainly vastly greater than the price of the
cells that go to make it up and, as you note, is a significant percentage of
the laptop price. It seems to me that the price of any consumable (and that
is what the battery is) for modern IT equipment is priced according to the
Tom Watson Snr (of IBM fame) model. Once you have locked the customer in to
buying your consumables, squeeze him for every penny. The profit in these
consumables is certainly outrageous compared with their obvious
manufacturing costs.