Hi

There are two things which make buying a laptop today VERY RISKY

- nearly all manufacturers only supply (and support) vista drivers
- this means you have no downgrade path in the event of problems
with applications

- gpu drivers for nvidia and ati mobile gpus are ONLY available via
the *laptop manufacturer*
- this means driver updates will be delayed and infrequent
- this means updates will STOP when the manufacturer wishes

these two facts mean buying a laptop today is not a good idea

my current pentium m laptop has up-to-date drivers for all components
downloaded
straight from the component manufacturer

this will not be possible with the current generation of laptops

because of this I have cancelled my plans to buy a $2000 laptop this
month

Watch out

"John Rivers" <first10@btinternet.com> wrote:
> There are two things which make buying a laptop today VERY RISKY
>
> - nearly all manufacturers only supply (and support) vista drivers
> - this means you have no downgrade path in the event of problems
> with applications
>
> - gpu drivers for nvidia and ati mobile gpus are ONLY available via
> the *laptop manufacturer*
> - this means driver updates will be delayed and infrequent
> - this means updates will STOP when the manufacturer wishes
>
> these two facts mean buying a laptop today is not a good idea
>
> my current pentium m laptop has up-to-date drivers for all components
> downloaded
> straight from the component manufacturer
>
> this will not be possible with the current generation of laptops
>
> because of this I have cancelled my plans to buy a $2000 laptop this
> month

Yes, but not everybody can be without a laptop, so what are they to do?
Laptops always had some manufacturer supported drivers and probably
always will.

R. P.

"John Rivers" <first10@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bbfc4786-19ea-41fe-a4da-23636839eb8e@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> There are two things which make buying a laptop today VERY RISKY
>
> - nearly all manufacturers only supply (and support) vista drivers
> - this means you have no downgrade path in the event of problems
> with applications

Perhaps (together with price) this makes all the stronger
case for the Asus Eee, with Linux OS, preconfigured for
wireless Internet etc. Storage is limited to 4 Gb so you
would need a desktop as well, but desktops will continue
to allow more flexibility and variation than laptops.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

"Don Phillipson" <e925@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message
news:g2dpa6$709$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
> "John Rivers" <first10@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:bbfc4786-19ea-41fe-a4da-23636839eb8e@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>> There are two things which make buying a laptop today VERY RISKY
>>
>> - nearly all manufacturers only supply (and support) vista drivers
>> - this means you have no downgrade path in the event of problems
>> with applications
>
> Perhaps (together with price) this makes all the stronger
> case for the Asus Eee, with Linux OS, preconfigured for
> wireless Internet etc. Storage is limited to 4 Gb so you
> would need a desktop as well, but desktops will continue
> to allow more flexibility and variation than laptops.
>
> --
> Don Phillipson
> Carlsbad Springs
> (Ottawa, Canada)
>
After several years of using laptops I went back to a desktop a couple of
years ago for reasons of durability, ease of service, and I could build it
myself! It is also cheap (relatively) to maintain compared to a laptop. Easy
to upgrade and blow the dust bunnies out of too.

It was reported here in New Zealand recently that laptops are outselling
desktops 3 to 1. Most of the laptop owners I know personally very rarely use
the portability of their laptop, keeping it plugged into the power on their
desk most of the time. I think a lot of these people might be in for a real
shock the first time their laptop needs servicing. My last laptop suffered a
cup of tea spill over the keyboard which did it no harm whatsoever except
for the keyboard which was totalled. I was told a replacement, should it
even be available, would cost something in the area of $300 to $400. I just
wasn't prepared to put that sort of money into an older machine. But a
desktop is a dream for getting parts, and servicing by comparison.

Maybe the retaillers here sort of push prospective buyers towards laptops
because there's more money in it - in the sense that they will be back for
a new one much sooner than they would be on average with a desktop.

Hmmmm - any thoughts out there?

--
Peter in New Zealand. (Email address is fake)
Collector of old cameras, tropical fish fancier, good coffee nutter, and
compulsive computer fiddler.

Peter in New Zealand wrote:
> "Don Phillipson" <e925@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message
> news:g2dpa6$709$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
>> "John Rivers" <first10@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:bbfc4786-19ea-41fe-a4da-23636839eb8e@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> There are two things which make buying a laptop today VERY RISKY
>>>
>>> - nearly all manufacturers only supply (and support) vista drivers
>>> - this means you have no downgrade path in the event of problems
>>> with applications
>> Perhaps (together with price) this makes all the stronger
>> case for the Asus Eee, with Linux OS, preconfigured for
>> wireless Internet etc. Storage is limited to 4 Gb so you
>> would need a desktop as well, but desktops will continue
>> to allow more flexibility and variation than laptops.
>>
>> --
>> Don Phillipson
>> Carlsbad Springs
>> (Ottawa, Canada)
>>
> After several years of using laptops I went back to a desktop a couple of
> years ago for reasons of durability, ease of service, and I could build it
> myself! It is also cheap (relatively) to maintain compared to a laptop. Easy
> to upgrade and blow the dust bunnies out of too.
>
> It was reported here in New Zealand recently that laptops are outselling
> desktops 3 to 1. Most of the laptop owners I know personally very rarely use
> the portability of their laptop, keeping it plugged into the power on their
> desk most of the time. I think a lot of these people might be in for a real
> shock the first time their laptop needs servicing. My last laptop suffered a
> cup of tea spill over the keyboard which did it no harm whatsoever except
> for the keyboard which was totalled. I was told a replacement, should it
> even be available, would cost something in the area of $300 to $400. I just
> wasn't prepared to put that sort of money into an older machine. But a
> desktop is a dream for getting parts, and servicing by comparison.
>
> Maybe the retaillers here sort of push prospective buyers towards laptops
> because there's more money in it - in the sense that they will be back for
> a new one much sooner than they would be on average with a desktop.
>
> Hmmmm - any thoughts out there?
>

Unless you have a one-of-a-kind gold plated keyboard, you can usually
find any model for under $40.00.

Uh yeah, of course they send the consumer to laptops. There is zero
profit margin on PC's anymore.

Of course you can get a pretty good laptop for $500.00, they will kill
you on the warranty coverage. That's where they make the money.

--
The RIGHT REVEREND G.G. WILLIKERS

"John Rivers" <first10@btinternet.com> schreef in bericht
news:bbfc4786-19ea-41fe-a4da-23636839eb8e@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Hi
>
> There are two things which make buying a laptop today VERY RISKY
>
> - nearly all manufacturers only supply (and support) vista drivers
> - this means you have no downgrade path in the event of problems
> with applications


I recently bought a Medion notebook. Also XP drivers suplied and available
from site.




--
regards,

|\ /|
| \/ |@rk
\../
\/os

In news:1212836350.910295@ftpsrv1,
Peter in New Zealand typed on Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:06:42 +1200:
> After several years of using laptops I went back to a desktop a
> couple of years ago for reasons of durability, ease of service, and I
> could build it myself! It is also cheap (relatively) to maintain
> compared to a laptop. Easy to upgrade and blow the dust bunnies out
> of too.
> It was reported here in New Zealand recently that laptops are
> outselling desktops 3 to 1. Most of the laptop owners I know
> personally very rarely use the portability of their laptop, keeping
> it plugged into the power on their desk most of the time. I think a
> lot of these people might be in for a real shock the first time their
> laptop needs servicing. My last laptop suffered a cup of tea spill
> over the keyboard which did it no harm whatsoever except for the
> keyboard which was totalled. I was told a replacement, should it even
> be available, would cost something in the area of $300 to $400. I
> just wasn't prepared to put that sort of money into an older machine.
> But a desktop is a dream for getting parts, and servicing by
> comparison.
> Maybe the retaillers here sort of push prospective buyers towards
> laptops because there's more money in it - in the sense that they
> will be back for a new one much sooner than they would be on average
> with a desktop.
> Hmmmm - any thoughts out there?

Well let see... I have owned seven laptops since 1984.

1) Epson Geneva PX-8, CP/M 2.2 ROM based ('84)
2) Sharp PC-4501, V20, 640KB, ('89)
3) Toshiba T1950CS, 486 20 MHz ('94)
4) Toshiba 2595XDVD, Celeron 400MHz, 192MB ('99)
5) Toshiba 2595XDVD, Celeron 400MHz, 192MB ('99)
6) Gateway MX6124, Celeron 1.5GHz, 1GB ('06)
7) Gateway MX6124, Celeron 1.5GHz, 1GB ('06)

All of them I purchased with a warrantee of 90 days or less. And 1, 2,
4, 5, and 6 are still working great. Number 3 had taken 5 years to cook
itself to death and they didn't design it with a fan and they should
have. And number 7 I purchased for spare parts off of eBay for $200 and
it works great except for the lamp, loose DC jack, and the left shift
key doesn't usually work. And they only told me about the lamp. LOL

So in 24 years and 7 laptops later, only a warrantee greater than 5
years would have changed something for me. And that would have only
helped with one laptop anyway. I seem to recall Consumer Reports say
something like most laptops needs to be repaired 40% of the time after
the first 4 years. Which is really different than with my own personal
experience.

And yes I usually use my laptops on a computer desk hooked up to
external keyboards, mice, and monitors. Although for the rare times I
need to go portable, removing a few cables and I am portable. Moving a
desktop to another room is nothing but a PIA.

So in my experience, laptops are very easy to maintain. Easy to swap
hard drives (under 60 seconds), Easier to upgrade the memory. And very
easy to connect and disconnect cables. And since I have been buying a
spare (backup) laptop lately... If my main one goes down for any reason,
I am back up in about 60 seconds (remember I can swap hard drives with
Windows installed as it is the same model). Far cheaper than buying a
warrantee and my instant service is far better than anything you can get
otherwise at any price. ;-)

--
Bill

BillW50 wrote:
> In news:1212836350.910295@ftpsrv1,
> Peter in New Zealand typed on Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:06:42 +1200:
>> After several years of using laptops I went back to a desktop a
>> couple of years ago for reasons of durability, ease of service, and I
>> could build it myself! It is also cheap (relatively) to maintain
>> compared to a laptop. Easy to upgrade and blow the dust bunnies out
>> of too.
>> It was reported here in New Zealand recently that laptops are
>> outselling desktops 3 to 1. Most of the laptop owners I know
>> personally very rarely use the portability of their laptop, keeping
>> it plugged into the power on their desk most of the time. I think a
>> lot of these people might be in for a real shock the first time their
>> laptop needs servicing. My last laptop suffered a cup of tea spill
>> over the keyboard which did it no harm whatsoever except for the
>> keyboard which was totalled. I was told a replacement, should it even
>> be available, would cost something in the area of $300 to $400. I
>> just wasn't prepared to put that sort of money into an older machine.
>> But a desktop is a dream for getting parts, and servicing by
>> comparison.
>> Maybe the retaillers here sort of push prospective buyers towards
>> laptops because there's more money in it - in the sense that they
>> will be back for a new one much sooner than they would be on average
>> with a desktop.
>> Hmmmm - any thoughts out there?
>
> Well let see... I have owned seven laptops since 1984.
>
> 1) Epson Geneva PX-8, CP/M 2.2 ROM based ('84)
> 2) Sharp PC-4501, V20, 640KB, ('89)
> 3) Toshiba T1950CS, 486 20 MHz ('94)
> 4) Toshiba 2595XDVD, Celeron 400MHz, 192MB ('99)
> 5) Toshiba 2595XDVD, Celeron 400MHz, 192MB ('99)
> 6) Gateway MX6124, Celeron 1.5GHz, 1GB ('06)
> 7) Gateway MX6124, Celeron 1.5GHz, 1GB ('06)
>
> All of them I purchased with a warrantee of 90 days or less. And 1, 2,
> 4, 5, and 6 are still working great. Number 3 had taken 5 years to cook
> itself to death and they didn't design it with a fan and they should
> have. And number 7 I purchased for spare parts off of eBay for $200 and
> it works great except for the lamp, loose DC jack, and the left shift
> key doesn't usually work. And they only told me about the lamp. LOL
>
> So in 24 years and 7 laptops later, only a warrantee greater than 5
> years would have changed something for me. And that would have only
> helped with one laptop anyway. I seem to recall Consumer Reports say
> something like most laptops needs to be repaired 40% of the time after
> the first 4 years. Which is really different than with my own personal
> experience.
>
> And yes I usually use my laptops on a computer desk hooked up to
> external keyboards, mice, and monitors. Although for the rare times I
> need to go portable, removing a few cables and I am portable. Moving a
> desktop to another room is nothing but a PIA.
>
> So in my experience, laptops are very easy to maintain. Easy to swap
> hard drives (under 60 seconds), Easier to upgrade the memory. And very
> easy to connect and disconnect cables. And since I have been buying a
> spare (backup) laptop lately... If my main one goes down for any reason,
> I am back up in about 60 seconds (remember I can swap hard drives with
> Windows installed as it is the same model). Far cheaper than buying a
> warrantee and my instant service is far better than anything you can get
> otherwise at any price. ;-)
>

I share some of John's and Bill's views, but I have found a middle road
that fully satisfies me: I do own a Thinkpad for the days I need to be
mobile (about two months per year) and the rest of the time, I have two
smallish Acer desktops (connected to a network, including my TP) which
are no much bigger than a decent laptop. Moving them does not involve
anything more than move a laptop, except for the screen.

This way, I can use a decent no-glare screen, have very simple access to
the inside to replace the HD if I want, and I can use the keyboard I
want. To me, this is the best of both worlds. And they are as silent as
my laptop.

The key is, owning or buying a good quality laptop. I was fortunate
enough to buy my TP before Lenovo moved in.

All my machines run XP, having downgraded, fairly painfully, the Acer
one which came with Vista.

In short, I am a happy computer user this way.


--
John Doue

>> Hmmmm - any thoughts out there?
>>
>
> Unless you have a one-of-a-kind gold plated keyboard, you can usually find
> any model for under $40.00.
>
> Uh yeah, of course they send the consumer to laptops. There is zero profit
> margin on PC's anymore.
>
> Of course you can get a pretty good laptop for $500.00, they will kill you
> on the warranty coverage. That's where they make the money.
>
> --
> The RIGHT REVEREND G.G. WILLIKERS

You make some good points. I went to the NZ agents for my keyboard, but it
wasn't a "brand name" machine like Toshiba or Acer. It was made by an outfit
called "Clevo". It's my understanding they make generic laptops by the mile
and you can buy a heap from them, slap your own name plate on the top, and
sell it as your own brand. Mine didn't have a brand on it anywhere on the
outside. Perhaps I would have been better paying the extra for a brand name
machine to secure some decent backup. Re the keyboard pricing - that's what
the agents told me anyway. Maybe they hoped to sell me a new one. I even
tried a few places that claimed to be able to get any parts, either new or
second hand, and they could not help me. The cheapest laptops here in NZ run
arund $900, unless you are lucky to catch a cash back deal which can bring
it down a little further.

Having said that I must admit I am looking for a cheap 2nd hand machine for
occasional use as a portable word processor. Currently looking at an old
Toshiba Travelmate 512DX that will set be back $140 if I get it.

Maybe the small size of the NZ market stops discounting going past a certain
point - ah well.

--
Peter in New Zealand. (Email address is fake)
Collector of old cameras, tropical fish fancier, good coffee nutter, and
compulsive computer fiddler.

"Don Phillipson" <e925@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:

>Perhaps (together with price) this makes all the stronger
>case for the Asus Eee, with Linux OS, preconfigured for
>wireless Internet etc. Storage is limited to 4 Gb so you
>would need a desktop as well, but desktops will continue
>to allow more flexibility and variation than laptops.

This is the combination above I've been thinking abt.

Either a regular desktop and eePC type device or
largish laptop (15.4" as a desktop replacement) and an
eePC

Peter in New Zealand wrote:
>>> Hmmmm - any thoughts out there?
>>>
>> Unless you have a one-of-a-kind gold plated keyboard, you can usually find
>> any model for under $40.00.
>>
>> Uh yeah, of course they send the consumer to laptops. There is zero profit
>> margin on PC's anymore.
>>
>> Of course you can get a pretty good laptop for $500.00, they will kill you
>> on the warranty coverage. That's where they make the money.
>>
>> --
>> The RIGHT REVEREND G.G. WILLIKERS
>
> You make some good points. I went to the NZ agents for my keyboard, but it
> wasn't a "brand name" machine like Toshiba or Acer. It was made by an outfit
> called "Clevo". It's my understanding they make generic laptops by the mile
> and you can buy a heap from them, slap your own name plate on the top, and
> sell it as your own brand. Mine didn't have a brand on it anywhere on the
> outside. Perhaps I would have been better paying the extra for a brand name
> machine to secure some decent backup. Re the keyboard pricing - that's what
> the agents told me anyway. Maybe they hoped to sell me a new one. I even
> tried a few places that claimed to be able to get any parts, either new or
> second hand, and they could not help me. The cheapest laptops here in NZ run
> arund $900, unless you are lucky to catch a cash back deal which can bring
> it down a little further.
>
> Having said that I must admit I am looking for a cheap 2nd hand machine for
> occasional use as a portable word processor. Currently looking at an old
> Toshiba Travelmate 512DX that will set be back $140 if I get it.
>
> Maybe the small size of the NZ market stops discounting going past a certain
> point - ah well.
>
What are your offshore options. I have ordered things from NZ on ebay
before.

You might try craigslist, I don't see much there, but you might get
something with a want ad.

http://geo.craigslist.org/iso/nz

http://geo.craigslist.org/iso/au

--
The RIGHT REVEREND G.G. WILLIKERS

In news:rcvl44pa0po7gb2s2eoqn8bjkub8s5kppl@4ax.com,
me@privacy.net typed on Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:36:57 -0500:
> "Don Phillipson" <e925@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps (together with price) this makes all the stronger
>> case for the Asus Eee, with Linux OS, preconfigured for
>> wireless Internet etc. Storage is limited to 4 Gb so you
>> would need a desktop as well, but desktops will continue
>> to allow more flexibility and variation than laptops.
>
> This is the combination above I've been thinking abt.
>
> Either a regular desktop and eePC type device or
> largish laptop (15.4" as a desktop replacement) and an
> eePC

Linux never interested me since many devices I want to add, doesn't have
drivers for it. I also have so much invested in Windows applications it
would be stupid for me to throw it all away. The rule of thumb back in
the 80's was pick the OS that will run the applications you want and it
is still true today. This is probably why Linus Torvalds (the father of
Linux) in his book says he uses Windows too. Anybody thinking about
going to Linux should really do their homework first. As many jump to
Linux and learn later that it doesn't do them much good. :-(

--
Bill

>> Maybe the small size of the NZ market stops discounting going past a
>> certain point - ah well.
>>
> What are your offshore options. I have ordered things from NZ on ebay
> before.
>
> You might try craigslist, I don't see much there, but you might get
> something with a want ad.
>
> http://geo.craigslist.org/iso/nz
>
> http://geo.craigslist.org/iso/au
>
> --
> The RIGHT REVEREND G.G. WILLIKERS

Never seen that Craigs list thing before. It looks interesting so I will do
some browsing. Thanks for the link. I guess I feel buying in NZ means there
is someone I can go back to if the goods don't work as advertised. Our
Consumer Guarantees Act gives us quite good protection in that area. Also I
don't know whether a laptop being privately imported might attract import
duty. I don't actually know and would need to check on that.

There's quite a range of used laptops coming through now on Trademe (our NZ
equivalent of eBay). They are machines that are still pretty good, although
one or two generations old in their specs. They run Windows 2000 or 98 just
fine and are excellent for basic office stuff. That's there I am looking at
the one I mentioned earlier. Just got to wait until this Wednesday when the
auction finishes to see if I've got it. So far no one else has bid on it.
(hope, hope) Thanks for your comments.

--
Peter in New Zealand. (Email address is fake)
Collector of old cameras, tropical fish fancier, good coffee nutter, and
compulsive computer fiddler.

John Rivers <first10@btinternet.com> wrote:

>- gpu drivers for nvidia and ati mobile gpus are ONLY available via
>the *laptop manufacturer*
> - this means driver updates will be delayed and infrequent
> - this means updates will STOP when the manufacturer wishes

What if the laptop has built in video...on bard video?

Still same situation on gpu drivers?

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:

>> Either a regular desktop and eePC type device or
>> largish laptop (15.4" as a desktop replacement) and an
>> eePC
>
>Linux never interested me since many devices I want to add, doesn't have
>drivers for it

There is an eePC model with Win XP now