Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org

Useful Info wrote:
> Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
>

Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.

Nope. Palm is dead.

Q

In article <1180563355.853218.305940@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups. com>,
Useful Info <useful_inf******.com> wrote:

> Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org

Sort of. I really can't figure out what they're up to. The new device
runs Linux, but they're positioning the thing like an accessory to a
$400 Treo. Which still runs the now archaic PalmOS.

--
"That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
that interesting?"
- George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

In article <q92dncAPGOAp0MLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Quaoar <quaoar@marcabfleet.com> wrote:

> Useful Info wrote:
> > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
> >
>
> Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
> decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
> bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
> does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.

WiFi, according to Hawkins, in a video interview he gave yesterday.

Also:

http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobi...foleo/web.html

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/top/palm-...-smartphone-26
4550.php

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives...bile_companion.
html

> Nope. Palm is dead.

Maybe it just smells bad sometimes?

In article <q92dncAPGOAp0MLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Quaoar <quaoar@marcabfleet.com> wrote:

> Useful Info wrote:
> > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
> >
>
> Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
> decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
> bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
> does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.
>
> Nope. Palm is dead.

I hope not.

But putting this thing out is a very poor decision. I was reading
an article this morning about it where they spoke with the fellow
from HandSpring who invented it. He said himself that its time of
release should have been years ago when he thought of it. Instead
he had to wait through the recent round of Treos before Palm
would let him produce it.

My Palm PDA has become the other half of my brain. I love the
little thing. It's not just for my addresses and dates. I use
WordSmith with it, an absolutely brilliant text program, that
lets me read and write on my Palm all day long. When that is what
I need to do it is great not to have to lug my MacBook around
with me. I hope Palm manages to survive their bungling. No way am
I going to use one of those MS Windows infected hand held
monstrosities.

My very favorite part of my Palm is Graffiti, the handwriting
recognition system. Its not perfect, but then again I am a very
sloppy writer. I have to say that it is a joy to use, far better
than any other handwriting recognition yet available, once you
get the hang of it, which only takes a day.

As for Palm OS: It is nothing special. I have no doubt that
moving to Linux is an improvement. The only problem is abandoning
the zillions of Palm programs available. Hopefully they can build
a Palm OS emulator into new more powerful devices. Considering
the fact that they did exactly that for Mac OS X and Windows for
the use of developers (I have a copy) I don't see any problem.

:-Derek

--
Fortune Magazine 11-29-05: What's your computer setup today?
Frederick Brooks: I happily use a Macintosh. It's not been
equalled for ease of use, and I want my computer to be a tool,
not a challenge.
<http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/12/12/8363107/>
[Frederick Brooks is the author of 'The Mythical Man Month'.
He spearheaded the movement to modernize computer software
engineering in 1975.]

In article
<derekcurrie-3D8081.02501401062007@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>,
Derek Currie <derekcurrie@mac.com.invalid> wrote:

> In article <q92dncAPGOAp0MLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Quaoar <quaoar@marcabfleet.com> wrote:
>
> > Useful Info wrote:
> > > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
> > >
> >
> > Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
> > decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
> > bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
> > does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.
> >
> > Nope. Palm is dead.
>
> I hope not.
>
> But putting this thing out is a very poor decision. I was reading
> an article this morning about it where they spoke with the fellow
> from HandSpring who invented it. He said himself that its time of
> release should have been years ago when he thought of it. Instead
> he had to wait through the recent round of Treos before Palm
> would let him produce it.

I'm not sure I really get the Folio. Sure, it's cheaper than one of
those tiny Sony laptops. And it's smaller than any of the cheap laptops
I've seen. And it probably gets better battery life than either.

There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
with that battery life, and at that price. A specialty device like the
Folio is going to get eaten alive by machines running real desktop
operating systems.

They can't really make it any smaller, because it needs a 10" screen and
full-sized keyboard. They could keep it consistently cheaper than
fully-featured laptops. But remember, people are increasingly buying
laptops rather than desktops as their primary computers. Five years from
now, I'd expect this to be pervasive. If your primary machine was a
desktop and you just wanted something portable for taking notes, etc.
the Folio might make sense. But if your primary machine is a supper-slim
laptop, are you really going to buy a Folio as well?

[snip]

> As for Palm OS: It is nothing special. I have no doubt that
> moving to Linux is an improvement. The only problem is abandoning
> the zillions of Palm programs available. Hopefully they can build
> a Palm OS emulator into new more powerful devices. Considering
> the fact that they did exactly that for Mac OS X and Windows for
> the use of developers (I have a copy) I don't see any problem.

Palm isn't, as of yet, moving their actual PDAs to Linux. This is
somewhat baffling. Palm OS is really long in the tooth at this point.

I've bought a couple of Palms, and its sad to see them flailing around
this way. Ahh, well. Apple is showing up with the iPhone just in time.
(My current Palm's touch screen is giving out.)

--
"That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
that interesting?"
- George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

ZnU wrote:

(a little snip here, a little snip there)

> There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
> market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
> with that battery life, and at that price. A specialty device like the
> Folio is going to get eaten alive by machines running real desktop
> operating systems.

I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
"vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
will be the size of the Foleo.

It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
Foleo when doing "intense work."

The only way that will work, however, is if the Foleo is roughly
equivalent to a laptop in usability. And it doesn't seem like it's there
yet.

But, one of the reasons the Treo doesn't appeal to me is simply the size
of its screen. So, maybe. But then again, maybe not.

--
Derek

Many are cold, but few are frozen.

In article <5cbik7F2v8vg8U1@mid.individual.net>, Derek <news@gwinn.us>
wrote:

> ZnU wrote:
>
> (a little snip here, a little snip there)
>
> > There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
> > market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
> > with that battery life, and at that price. A specialty device like the
> > Folio is going to get eaten alive by machines running real desktop
> > operating systems.
>
> I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
> entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
> "vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
> will be the size of the Foleo.
>
> It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
> and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
> a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
> Foleo when doing "intense work."

I think it's very likely that in the long run, smartphones (docked to
appropriate display and input devices for different purposes) will
become the center of people's computing lives. However, Palm's platform
is screwed when that happens, for basically the same reason I mention
above. The smartphones which will eventually enable this are by
definition going to be viable replacements for real computers. That
means they're going to be running fully-fledged desktop operating
systems.

The most likely contenders in that field are future versions of the
currently established desktop operating systems, with features added to
toggle their interfaces into small screen modes on the go. Palm's
chances of leveraging its mobile platform into a platform which can take
on established fully-fledged operating systems are virtually
nonexistent, IMO.

> The only way that will work, however, is if the Foleo is roughly
> equivalent to a laptop in usability. And it doesn't seem like it's there
> yet.
>
> But, one of the reasons the Treo doesn't appeal to me is simply the size
> of its screen. So, maybe. But then again, maybe not.

--
"That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
that interesting?"
- George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 02:50:14 -0400, Derek Currie wrote:

> My Palm PDA has become the other half of my brain. I love the
> little thing. It's not just for my addresses and dates. I use
> WordSmith with it, an absolutely brilliant text program, that
> lets me read and write on my Palm all day long. When that is what
> I need to do it is great not to have to lug my MacBook around
> with me. I hope Palm manages to survive their bungling. No way am
> I going to use one of those MS Windows infected hand held
> monstrosities.

You're wise beyond your years. <g>


> Fortune Magazine 11-29-05: What's your computer setup today?
> Frederick Brooks: I happily use a Macintosh. It's not been
> equalled for ease of use, and I want my computer to be a tool,
> not a challenge.
> <http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/12/12/8363107/>
> [Frederick Brooks is the author of 'The Mythical Man Month'.
> He spearheaded the movement to modernize computer software
> engineering in 1975.]

That's a good book, describing how he helped design OS/360, and I
read it shortly after it was published. But Brooks wasn't much
concerned about ease of use back then if OS/360's JCL is any
indication. A review of "The Mythical Man Month" described JCL as
one of the uglier things in it.

http://www.softpanorama.org/Bookshel...sic/tmmm.shtml


Here's a description of it from another source :

> Command languages were not always high level
> languages. OS/360’s JCL (job control language) was
> (and is) much like assembly language:
> //SUMMARY JOB REGION=(100K,50K)
> // EXEC PGM=SUMMAR
> //SYSIN DD DSNAME=REP.6501,DISP=OLD,
> // UNIT=2314,SPACE=(TRK,(1,1,1)),
> // VOLUME=SER=577632
> //SYSIN DD DSNAME=SUM.6501,DISP=(,KEEP),
> // UNIT=2314,SPACE=(TRK,(1,1,1)),
> // VOLUME=SER=577632
> //SYSABEND DD SYSOUT=A
>
> This code did in 1965 what now one would do with:
> summarize < jan.report > jan.summary

> NOTE JCL was designed to be easy to learn by
> assembly language programmers, since at that time
> most programming was done in assembly. Therefore
> the syntax of JCL was designed to be similar to the
> syntax of assembly languages. The objective was
> not met; even assembly programmers found JCL
> hard to learn, and most installations developed a
> small set of JCL gurus who wrote almost all the JCL
> required.
> The syntax of JCL is highly error-prone; for
> example, any spaces among the parameters would be
> interpreted as introducing a comment. A space just
> before KEEP in the above code fragment would tell
> OS/360 to throw away the output.


http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=6&gl=us

Useful Info wrote:
> Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org

About all it offers is a guarantee that the linux delivered with the machine
will run. The chip compatibility problems have to be addressed. That does not
mean applications added by the user will also work if they do not use the
drivers that do work with the machine.

--
How loyal can the US military be when it comes to grips with the lying
political leadership?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3769
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1

In article <znu-8A321F.18253001062007@individual.net>,
ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote:

> > I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
> > entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
> > "vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
> > will be the size of the Foleo.
> >
> > It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
> > and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
> > a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
> > Foleo when doing "intense work."
>
> I think it's very likely that in the long run, smartphones (docked to
> appropriate display and input devices for different purposes) will
> become the center of people's computing lives.

Actually, I'm hoping for a slightly better alternative. I think the
"phone" will become just a handset that connects wirelessly to your
"personal device" or whatever you want to call it. Imagine a device
the size of a wrist watch, that connects wirelessly to different user
interfaces. A headset for talking on the phone, a small iPod nano-size
display unit for making calls, listening to music. A larger (Nokia
N800) one if you want to watch stored or streamed video. A Foleo-sized
if you want to write texts, send email and so on. If you walk up to a
desktop computer, your personal device shows up on the desktop and you
carry your entire work area with you.

The customer can buy the PD from a vendor and the interface from
another, much like you do with bluetooth headsets today. You can pick
and choose whatever components you think fits you, and no single
component aims to be an all-in-one-solution, that is the focus for
most devices today.

So, your personal device, in the form of a wrist watch, is always with
you. It's not "yet another device" since most people use wrist watches
anyway. If they don't, buy the model that is a piece of necklace
jewelry or something like that. Just make sure it's something you're
likely to always be carrying with you.

When you wake up in the morning, you go up to make some coffee.
Detecting your presence, your flatscreen TV turns on and shows you the
rss feeds that your PD has downloaded during the night. It also shows
you your schedule for today.

When you sit down in your car, your PD connects to your car and your
in-car handset phone allows you to make calls and your in-car screen
has you connected to the internet with your login and settings.

At work, you login to your workstation with your PD and you can read
your mail stored on it while also using the desktop-HD where your
projects may be.

Obviously, Microsoft Surface is a perfect interface for this kind of
thing.


--
Sandman[.net]

On Thu, 31 May 2007 22:54:03 -0700, Steve Hix
<sehix@NOSPAMspeakeasy.netINVALID> wrote:

>> Nope. Palm is dead.
>
>Maybe it just smells bad sometimes?

Well, it's certainly a lively corpse. People have been pronouncing
them dead for almost a decade now.
--
"It's a long story. And it ends with me on the roof of a god****ed nuthouse
on Route 128 doing a one-man tribute to the Three Stooges."
-- Art in "Eastern Standard Tribe"

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:00:54 -0400, ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote:
>
>> As for Palm OS: It is nothing special. I have no doubt that
>> moving to Linux is an improvement. The only problem is abandoning
>> the zillions of Palm programs available. Hopefully they can build
>> a Palm OS emulator into new more powerful devices. Considering
>> the fact that they did exactly that for Mac OS X and Windows for
>> the use of developers (I have a copy) I don't see any problem.
>
>Palm isn't, as of yet, moving their actual PDAs to Linux. This is
>somewhat baffling. Palm OS is really long in the tooth at this point.

Palm has always been very conservative with their hardware and
software -- sometimes too conservative. They'll probably move their
PDA/smartphones to Linux once they are certain that moving to Linux
won't break too many things. So the Foleo gives them a justification
for moving to Linux but also builds in a delay so they can test it
under real world conditions before trying to put it on a smartphone or
PDA. It also allows them to get their beak wet in the shallow end of
the laptop market without being saddled by the razor thin profit
margins, bugs, and poor build quality normally associated with cheap
laptops.

History says that the Foleo will fail -- it closely resembles
Microsoft's ill-fated Handheld PC platform. But Palm has at least
tried to limit their risks as much as possible with this new platform.
They could probably sell a few thousand of these, step back and see if
they are making headway in the market, abandon the platform if they
are not, and look for another next big thing without losing much
money.
>
>I've bought a couple of Palms, and its sad to see them flailing around
>this way. Ahh, well. Apple is showing up with the iPhone just in time.
>(My current Palm's touch screen is giving out.)

I can't see myself using a smartphone without a keyboard. If anything,
this Foleo has me looking harder at the video capable iPod. I can
retire my LifeDrive and Treo 600 and upgrade to a Treo 680 and a 30GB
iPod for slightly less than the price of the iPhone -- or the Foleo
for that matter.

Of course if a future version of the Foleo can somehow stream music
and video off the iPod and had the horsepower for decent quality video
and costs $100 less, I'll be all over it.
--
"This is a revolution dammit! We're going to have to offend
somebody."
-- John Adams in "1776"

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net

ASAAR (caught@22.com) got drunk after typing this drivel in
news:3en163ttd2poubu6h7bik9u2mlj5aobkrb@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 02:50:14 -0400, Derek Currie wrote:
>
>> My Palm PDA has become the other half of my brain. I love the
>> little thing. It's not just for my addresses and dates. I use
>> WordSmith with it, an absolutely brilliant text program, that
>> lets me read and write on my Palm all day long. When that is what
>> I need to do it is great not to have to lug my MacBook around
>> with me. I hope Palm manages to survive their bungling. No way am
>> I going to use one of those MS Windows infected hand held
>> monstrosities.
>
> You're wise beyond your years. <g>
>
>
>> Fortune Magazine 11-29-05: What's your computer setup today?
>> Frederick Brooks: I happily use a Macintosh. It's not been
>> equalled for ease of use, and I want my computer to be a tool,
>> not a challenge.
>> <http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...2005/12/12/836
>> 3107/> [Frederick Brooks is the author of 'The Mythical Man Month'.
>> He spearheaded the movement to modernize computer software
>> engineering in 1975.]
>
> That's a good book, describing how he helped design OS/360, and I
> read it shortly after it was published. But Brooks wasn't much
> concerned about ease of use back then if OS/360's JCL is any
> indication. A review of "The Mythical Man Month" described JCL as
> one of the uglier things in it.
>
> http://www.softpanorama.org/Bookshel...sic/tmmm.shtml
>
>
> Here's a description of it from another source :
>
>> Command languages were not always high level
>> languages. OS/360’s JCL (job control language) was
>> (and is) much like assembly language:
>> //SUMMARY JOB REGION=(100K,50K)
>> // EXEC PGM=SUMMAR
>> //SYSIN DD DSNAME=REP.6501,DISP=OLD,
>> // UNIT=2314,SPACE=(TRK,(1,1,1)),
>> // VOLUME=SER=577632
>> //SYSIN DD DSNAME=SUM.6501,DISP=(,KEEP),
>> // UNIT=2314,SPACE=(TRK,(1,1,1)),
>> // VOLUME=SER=577632
>> //SYSABEND DD SYSOUT=A
>>
>> This code did in 1965 what now one would do with:
>> summarize < jan.report > jan.summary
>
>> NOTE JCL was designed to be easy to learn by
>> assembly language programmers, since at that time
>> most programming was done in assembly. Therefore
>> the syntax of JCL was designed to be similar to the
>> syntax of assembly languages. The objective was
>> not met; even assembly programmers found JCL
>> hard to learn, and most installations developed a
>> small set of JCL gurus who wrote almost all the JCL
>> required.
>> The syntax of JCL is highly error-prone; for
>> example, any spaces among the parameters would be
>> interpreted as introducing a comment. A space just
>> before KEEP in the above code fragment would tell
>> OS/360 to throw away the output.
>
>
> http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...mu.oz.au/252/2
> 005s1/notes/lectures/Handout.ps+%22Frederick+Brooks%22+%22OS+360%22+JCL
> &hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us
>
>

Hey, don't make fun of JCL. I used to go around the country teaching it.
That seems like another lifetime ago. :)

--
Tom

In article <mr-7C2CE8.09043002062007@News.Individual.NET>,
Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:

> In article <znu-8A321F.18253001062007@individual.net>,
> ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
> > > entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
> > > "vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
> > > will be the size of the Foleo.
> > >
> > > It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
> > > and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
> > > a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
> > > Foleo when doing "intense work."
> >
> > I think it's very likely that in the long run, smartphones (docked to
> > appropriate display and input devices for different purposes) will
> > become the center of people's computing lives.
>
> Actually, I'm hoping for a slightly better alternative. I think the
> "phone" will become just a handset that connects wirelessly to your
> "personal device" or whatever you want to call it. Imagine a device
> the size of a wrist watch, that connects wirelessly to different user
> interfaces. A headset for talking on the phone, a small iPod nano-size
> display unit for making calls, listening to music. A larger (Nokia
> N800) one if you want to watch stored or streamed video. A Foleo-sized
> if you want to write texts, send email and so on. If you walk up to a
> desktop computer, your personal device shows up on the desktop and you
> carry your entire work area with you.

IMO, since you'd probably be carrying that handset accessory (at least)
everywhere anyway, it's easier to just stick the processor and storage
in there, along with whatever other functionality will fit without
making it too big.

I'd much rather carry around a single handset than a watch, a handset
accessory, a camera accessory and a music player accessory.

[snip]

> At work, you login to your workstation with your PD and you can read
> your mail stored on it while also using the desktop-HD where your
> projects may be.

For most people, it probably won't even be necessary to have a real
desktop computer that the mobile device shares data with. The mobile
device will probably have enough storage and processing power internally
to store all the user's stuff, directly drive external display devices,
etc.

On the storage front, consider the fact that 256 GB 2.5" flash drives
have just been announced. They're not shipping yet, but... project this
out five or ten years. We're probably talking about terabytes of storage
in a phone-sized device.

Full-sized computers -- in which I include laptops -- could go the way
of mainframes in the next couple of decades.

--
"That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
that interesting?"
- George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006