As a degreed engineer who has worked in both engineering and marketing
for a UPS manufacturer:

Re: "did you know on some UPS the fuse is on the INPUT side not the
output side? Eg you can plug in a 1000 watt halogen, which is way over
its rating, the fuse wont blow but the PCB will smoke."

I don't accept this as fact. Although I can't say with certainty that
no UPS is made that way, I've never seen one. In fact, most UPS' have
protective devices and/or circuitry separately on both the input and the
output.

Re: "I have one that take 4 12 volt SLA batteries wired in series.
Trouble is the batteries are dead and have swelled up and its about
$200+ to replace them." ....Wow! That is 48VDC! How many watts does this
UPS deliver?"

That I absolutely do believe. There are 900 to 1,500 VA UPS'. And,
capacity aside, more commercially oriented models also need to have a
longer run time. To supply 120 volts AC from a 12 volt battery takes
about 15 amps per 100 watts. Once you get to even 400 or 500 watts,
either you go to a 24 volt battery system or you accept some relatively
shorter run times (consumer units sacrifice run time). And once you get
to about 700-800 VA, you are really pushing the limits of a 12 volt SLA
battery. If you are in the 900 to 1,500VA range, then using 3 or 4
batteries becomes appropriate. And on the larger UPS', it's not
uncommon for a battery replacement to be a fairly major expense. [Note,
some UPS' also use very high capacity SIX VOLT batteries in series.]

Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS (the
inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays they don't do
this at all. As for example mine runs straight from the AC and the
inverter side is dead ... until the power goes out. And it allows just
one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a second) before it kicks in."

You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time UPS,
where you are always running off the inverter, are more expensive and
far less common for end-user consumer computer use. But they do still
exist.

That is a very standard battery. Check on E-Bay for replacement
sources. The problem with these batteries is that they are very heavy,
and shipping may cost more than the battery.

Ian Singer wrote:
>
>
>> "Ian Singer" <iansinger@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> I have one that take 4 12 volt SLA batteries wired in series. Trouble
>>> is the batteries are dead and have swelled up and its about $200+ to
>>> replace them.
>>
> BillW50 wrote:
>>
>> Wow! That is 48VDC! How many watts does this UPS deliver? What is the
>> AH of these batteries? I have seen sealed lead-acid batteries go
>> between 15 to 30 bucks apiece. This is for about 12V-10AH batteries.
>
> It's a Smartlink SLP2000P rated at 1320w output and uses 4ea GP1272F2
> 12V 7.2AH batteries. All four of them have swelled up and they were a
> pain to get out without rupturing them. If you know of any cheap deals
> that ship to Canada I might be interested but the thing is not sure if
> the UPS is good. It is putting out charging voltage though.
>
>>> Also did you know on some UPS the fuse is on the INPUT side not the
>>> output side? Eg you can plug in a 1000 watt halogen, which is way
>>> over its rating, the fuse wont blow but the PCB will smoke.
>>
>>
>> Wow really? That is pretty crappy design.
>
> True and a 1000 watt halogen is a really dirty load as its 100 %
> constant. Motherboard started smoking but once I unplugged it all was OK.
>
> Ian Singer
>
>

Barry Watzman wrote:
> As a degreed engineer who has worked in both engineering and marketing
> for a UPS manufacturer:
>
> Re: "did you know on some UPS the fuse is on the INPUT side not the
> output side? Eg you can plug in a 1000 watt halogen, which is way over
> its rating, the fuse wont blow but the PCB will smoke."
>

Well it was my UPS and I know what it did but I do not have it any more
so can not verify make or model.

Ian Singer

--


================================================== =======================
See my homepage at http://www.iansinger.com
hosted on http://www.1and1.com/?k_id=10623894
All genealogy is stored in TMG from http://www.whollygenes.com
Charts and searching using TNG from http://www.tngsitebuilding.com
I am near Toronto Canada, can I tell where you are from your reply?
================================================== =======================

Barry Watzman wrote:

> That is a very standard battery. Check on E-Bay for replacement
> sources. The problem with these batteries is that they are very heavy,
> and shipping may cost more than the battery.
>
>>
>>
>> It's a Smartlink SLP2000P rated at 1320w output and uses 4ea GP1272F2
>> 12V 7.2AH batteries. All four of them have swelled up and they were a
>> pain to get out without rupturing them.

Not listed on ebay.com as current item or in any completed sale. Is
listed in the ads they are running though. First one charges $32.50 each
and suggest shipping is about $1/LB but does not say for sure. I think
they weigh at least 10LB each.

Ian Singer
--


================================================== =======================
See my homepage at http://www.iansinger.com
hosted on http://www.1and1.com/?k_id=10623894
All genealogy is stored in TMG from http://www.whollygenes.com
Charts and searching using TNG from http://www.tngsitebuilding.com
I am near Toronto Canada, can I tell where you are from your reply?
================================================== =======================

Oh thanks for the info Barry! But why would anybody want a "full time"
UPS for? As you are losing efficiency running them in this way.

--
Bill

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:45763561$0$13730$4c368faf@roadrunner.com
> Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS (the
> inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays they don't
> do this at all. As for example mine runs straight from the AC and the
> inverter side is dead ... until the power goes out. And it allows just
> one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a second) before it kicks in."
>
> You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
> Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time UPS,
> where you are always running off the inverter, are more expensive and
> far less common for end-user consumer computer use. But they do still
> exist.

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
news:4576ecdb$0$1349$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere. com...
> Oh thanks for the info Barry! But why would anybody want a "full time"
> UPS for? As you are losing efficiency running them in this way.
>
> --
> Bill

Generally it's for big companies who can afford the extra $$$ to avoid
any chance of downtime. If you are always running on the batteries, when
the power does go out YOU know that ( alarms going off etc) , but the
equipment doesn't notice any difference. As long as the batteries last
as long as the outage, there is no chance of failure due to power. With
a failover UPS there is a chance that for a moment there would be no
power ( as the relays close). That's not acceptable in a big shop.

Or as happened to me a few weeks ago, I lost power at my house and for
the first time in X years my pc lost power - because my APC UPS
batteries were weak and did not have enough power to keep things
running - it powered off as the lights went out. I didn't know that
until the failure - it was fine for years and even a few months ago
(last power failure).

Bobb

>
> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:45763561$0$13730$4c368faf@roadrunner.com
>> Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS (the
>> inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays they don't
>> do this at all. As for example mine runs straight from the AC and
>> the
>> inverter side is dead ... until the power goes out. And it allows
>> just
>> one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a second) before it kicks in."
>>
>> You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
>> Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time UPS,
>> where you are always running off the inverter, are more expensive and
>> far less common for end-user consumer computer use. But they do
>> still
>> exist.
>

"- Bobb -" <bobb@noemail.123> wrote in message
news:O6-dnQB9uclrYOvYnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@comcast.com
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:4576ecdb$0$1349$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere. com...
>> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:45763561$0$13730$4c368faf@roadrunner.com
>>> Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS
>>> (the inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays
>>> they don't do this at all. As for example mine runs straight
>>> from the AC and the inverter side is dead ... until the power
>>> goes out. And it allows just one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a
>>> second) before it kicks in."
>>>
>>> You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
>>> Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time
>>> UPS, where you are always running off the inverter, are more
>>> expensive and far less common for end-user consumer computer use.
>>> But they do still exist.
>>
>> Oh thanks for the info Barry! But why would anybody want a "full
>> time" UPS for? As you are losing efficiency running them in this way.
>>
>> --
>> Bill
>
> Generally it's for big companies who can afford the extra $$$ to avoid
> any chance of downtime. If you are always running on the batteries,
> when the power does go out YOU know that ( alarms going off etc) ,
> but the equipment doesn't notice any difference. As long as the
> batteries last as long as the outage, there is no chance of failure
> due to power. With a failover UPS there is a chance that for a moment
> there would be no power ( as the relays close). That's not acceptable
> in a big shop.
> Or as happened to me a few weeks ago, I lost power at my house and for
> the first time in X years my pc lost power - because my APC UPS
> batteries were weak and did not have enough power to keep things
> running - it powered off as the lights went out. I didn't know that
> until the failure - it was fine for years and even a few months ago
> (last power failure).
>
> Bobb

Oh thanks Bobb! Although a bad Pb battery can be bad and not hold a
charge, but will look like it is working great with a charger on it
(high impendence). Thus when the power fails, boom! Nothing! They must
check the capacity of the UPS every once in awhile. My experience with
lead-acid is it is a good idea to check them every 3 months or so.

Wow! Yours died? How old were the batteries? Lead-acid usually makes it
for about 5 years. Was it older than this? Bummer! I check mine about
every 3 months to check the capacity. I use the desktop for this and it
hits it hard. It will only last about 4 minutes when everything is in
good shape. It will run the laptop for about an hour. Laptop with the
external 19" LCD monitor, about 1/2 hour.

--
Bill

"BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
news:457741e6$0$1343$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere. com...
> "- Bobb -" <bobb@noemail.123> wrote in message
<snipped>
Yours died? How old were the batteries? Lead-acid usually makes it
> for about 5 years. Was it older than this? Bummer! I check mine about
> every 3 months to check the capacity. I use the desktop for this and
> it hits it hard. It will only last about 4 minutes when everything is
> in good shape. It will run the laptop for about an hour. Laptop with
> the external 19" LCD monitor, about 1/2 hour.
>
> --
> Bill
Mine were about 10 years old AND I bought the APC600's used for $5 each
so no complaints here. ( Local business was going belly-up and had an
onsite auction.- there was a pallet full of them.) I have my tower
Pc,Monitor and a low wattage lamp plugged in and last year when the
power went out my neighbor called over. It looked fine in our house and
they couldn't figure out why. I have the smaller APC UPSs in bedroom
for lamps, another in the living room for the VCR/stereo etc ( I don't
want to have to reprogram 40 AM/FM stations). The big one for the PC
gives me plenty of time to shutdown the PC - and the lamp (40w globe
bulb) provides enough light to get around. We're at the far end of the
run from the power station and not unusual for someone to hit a phone
pole between there and here so that's why I got them all. With a laptop
all I really need is power for my cable modem and if needed I could be
online quite a while. Mostly it's to avoid crashing the PC as we used to
lose power regularly. In years past CompUSA or Staples etc had deals on
them so I bought a few and they were very cheap after rebates.

Bobb

"- Bobb -" <bobb@noemail.123> wrote in message
news:RIudnamEcql59OrYnZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com
> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message
> news:457741e6$0$1343$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere. com...
>> "- Bobb -" <bobb@noemail.123> wrote in message
> <snipped>
>> Yours died? How old were the batteries? Lead-acid usually makes it
>> for about 5 years. Was it older than this? Bummer! I check mine about
>> every 3 months to check the capacity. I use the desktop for this and
>> it hits it hard. It will only last about 4 minutes when everything is
>> in good shape. It will run the laptop for about an hour. Laptop with
>> the external 19" LCD monitor, about 1/2 hour.
>
> Mine were about 10 years old AND I bought the APC600's used for $5
> each so no complaints here. ( Local business was going belly-up and
> had an onsite auction.- there was a pallet full of them.) I have my
> tower Pc,Monitor and a low wattage lamp plugged in and last year when
> the power went out my neighbor called over. It looked fine in our
> house and they couldn't figure out why. I have the smaller APC UPSs in
> bedroom for lamps, another in the living room for the VCR/stereo
> etc ( I don't want to have to reprogram 40 AM/FM stations). The big
> one for the PC gives me plenty of time to shutdown the PC - and the
> lamp (40w globe bulb) provides enough light to get around. We're at
> the far end of the run from the power station and not unusual for
> someone to hit a phone pole between there and here so that's why I
> got them all. With a laptop all I really need is power for my cable
> modem and if needed I could be online quite a while. Mostly it's to
> avoid crashing the PC as we used to lose power regularly. In years
> past CompUSA or Staples etc had deals on them so I bought a few and
> they were very cheap after rebates.

Wow Bobb... That is very impressive on all accounts! :)

--
Bill

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:51:33 -1000, "Hertz_Donut"
<nowhere@mindspring.com> wrote:

:
:"Larry Mehl" <mehlREMOVETHIS@cyvest.com> wrote in message
:news:12n24f8dkg8fuba@corp.supernews.com...
:> Hello --
:>
:> I want to maximize the lifespan of my battery.
:>
:> The IBM Power Manager application's Battery Maintenance component says
:> "If you primarily use your computer with the ac adapter attached and only
:> infrequently use battery power, battery deterioration may occur faster if
:> the battery is constantly charged at 100%. Lowering the charge thresholds
:> for your battery and periodically resetting the battery gauge will help
:> increase its lifespan."
:>
:> Which of the 3 choices for Charge threshold do readers recommend?
:> - Always fully charge
:> - Optimize for battery lifespan; [ ] Notify me ...
:> - Custom (if this one, what settings should I use?)
:>
:> Is the Battery gauge reset a reliable procedure?
:>
:> Thanks for any help.
:>
:> Larry Mehl
:>
:>
:
:You have the wrong concept. If you primarily use your computer while
:attached to AC adapter, you should deplete the battery to the 60-70% level
:and *REMOVE IT*. If you leave the battery attached, the constant cycling an
:trickle charging will destroy it in less than a year, not to mention the
:heat damage that a sustained AC cycle puts on the battery.
:
:DO NOT LEAVE THE BATTERY IN THE COMPUTER.
:
:Honu
I figure this is the right answer, and is probably what I will do.
Deplete 60%, remove and likely refrigerate until I have a need to use
the battery.

Deplete it 40%, not 60% (e.g deplete it TO 60%, not BY 60%).

Although in theory refrigeration prolongs life, I do not believe that
the difference is significant (based on dealing with dozens of 1995 to
1997 batteries that were not refrigerated and are still fine). However,
if you do put it in a refrigerator and happen to freeze it by accident,
that CAN destroy the battery.


Dan_Musicant wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:51:33 -1000, "Hertz_Donut"
> <nowhere@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :"Larry Mehl" <mehlREMOVETHIS@cyvest.com> wrote in message
> :news:12n24f8dkg8fuba@corp.supernews.com...
> :> Hello --
> :>
> :> I want to maximize the lifespan of my battery.
> :>
> :> The IBM Power Manager application's Battery Maintenance component says
> :> "If you primarily use your computer with the ac adapter attached and only
> :> infrequently use battery power, battery deterioration may occur faster if
> :> the battery is constantly charged at 100%. Lowering the charge thresholds
> :> for your battery and periodically resetting the battery gauge will help
> :> increase its lifespan."
> :>
> :> Which of the 3 choices for Charge threshold do readers recommend?
> :> - Always fully charge
> :> - Optimize for battery lifespan; [ ] Notify me ...
> :> - Custom (if this one, what settings should I use?)
> :>
> :> Is the Battery gauge reset a reliable procedure?
> :>
> :> Thanks for any help.
> :>
> :> Larry Mehl
> :>
> :>
> :
> :You have the wrong concept. If you primarily use your computer while
> :attached to AC adapter, you should deplete the battery to the 60-70% level
> :and *REMOVE IT*. If you leave the battery attached, the constant cycling an
> :trickle charging will destroy it in less than a year, not to mention the
> :heat damage that a sustained AC cycle puts on the battery.
> :
> :DO NOT LEAVE THE BATTERY IN THE COMPUTER.
> :
> :Honu
> I figure this is the right answer, and is probably what I will do.
> Deplete 60%, remove and likely refrigerate until I have a need to use
> the battery.
>

> Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS (the
> inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays they don't do
> this at all. As for example mine runs straight from the AC and the
> inverter side is dead ... until the power goes out. And it allows just
> one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a second) before it kicks in."
>
> You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
> Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time UPS,
> where you are always running off the inverter, are more expensive and
> far less common for end-user consumer computer use. But they do still
> exist.

Would the standby UPS protect against surges?

I have a low end APC ("standby"), half of the outlets are surge protected -
but the energy it would dissipate is very low compared with a plain surge
protector (e.g. 300 Joules versus 2000).

The other half is battery protected and it does not says whether also surge
protected and that kind of worries me as from experience power fluctuations
are more frequent than plain interruptions.

Regards
a.

"A. Melinte" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:elbtpa$2k5$1@engnntp1.cig.mot.com
>> Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS (the
>> inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays they
>> don't do this at all. As for example mine runs straight from the AC
>> and the inverter side is dead ... until the power goes out. And it
>> allows just one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a second) before it
>> kicks in."
>>
>> You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
>> Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time UPS,
>> where you are always running off the inverter, are more expensive and
>> far less common for end-user consumer computer use. But they do
>> still exist.
>
> Would the standby UPS protect against surges?
>
> I have a low end APC ("standby"), half of the outlets are surge
> protected - but the energy it would dissipate is very low compared
> with a plain surge protector (e.g. 300 Joules versus 2000).
>
> The other half is battery protected and it does not says whether also
> surge protected and that kind of worries me as from experience power
> fluctuations are more frequent than plain interruptions.

Cheap surge protectors use MOVs. MOVs are very cheap to make. And they
can handle huge surges. One big disadvantage is they weaken from being
hit a lot. Thus if you are really worried about it, but a cheap surge
protector and plug your UPS into it. And replace the surge protector
every years if you care.

Since '81, I can't think of anything personally that cared if surges
were there or not. I friend of mine did get help from surges from an
elevator in the building (about in 1985). So okay I can see that. But
with switching power supplies used nowadays, surge protection isn't that
big of a deal for most people.

--
Bill

RE: "Would the standby UPS protect against surges?"

Yes, because the incoming power goes through a surge protector in all
cases, before going to anything (the surge protected outlets, the
battery charger, or the "transfer" relay that switches the battery
backup outlets between the power line and the inverter output).
Everything is connected to the power line through the surge protector.
However, there are limits on the level of surge that can be absorbed.
There are even limits with a full-time UPS; In the worst case, a direct
lightening strike to a utility line feeding a house is probably going to
smoke almost everything electrical in the entire house no matter what.


A. Melinte wrote:
>> Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS (the
>> inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays they don't do
>> this at all. As for example mine runs straight from the AC and the
>> inverter side is dead ... until the power goes out. And it allows just
>> one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a second) before it kicks in."
>>
>> You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
>> Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time UPS,
>> where you are always running off the inverter, are more expensive and
>> far less common for end-user consumer computer use. But they do still
>> exist.
>
> Would the standby UPS protect against surges?
>
> I have a low end APC ("standby"), half of the outlets are surge protected -
> but the energy it would dissipate is very low compared with a plain surge
> protector (e.g. 300 Joules versus 2000).
>
> The other half is battery protected and it does not says whether also surge
> protected and that kind of worries me as from experience power fluctuations
> are more frequent than plain interruptions.
>
> Regards
> a.
>
>
>

Expensive surge protectors use MOVs also (but not just MOVs ... also
inductive filters, the main difference between cheap and expensive surge
protectors).

It's ok to plug a UPS into a surge protector, but it's NOT ok to plug a
surge protector into the battery backed up outlets of a UPS. The
"modified square wave" output of many UPS' can shorten the life of /
damage / destroy MOVs (depending on the exact waveform of the UPS).

MOVs do indeed "wear out" and should be replaced every few years to
maintain protection.

And you are correct that switching power supplies are quite immune to
almost all types of power disturbances unless they are either severe or
of relatively long duration (that may, however, only mean tens or
hundreds of milliseconds). For surge protection reasons, power
protection devices are over-sold. However, to protect from data loss
for momentary power interruptions (total loss, but for only relatively
brief periods (seconds to 1-2 minutes)), UPS' are worth their weight in
gold.


BillW50 wrote:
> "A. Melinte" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:elbtpa$2k5$1@engnntp1.cig.mot.com
>>> Re: "Here is how I believe early UPS worked. They ran the UPS (the
>>> inverter) all of the time with or without power. Nowadays they
>>> don't do this at all. As for example mine runs straight from the AC
>>> and the inverter side is dead ... until the power goes out. And it
>>> allows just one half cycle to pass (1/120 of a second) before it
>>> kicks in."
>>>
>>> You are describing (correctly) "full time" UPS' and "standby" UPS'.
>>> Both types have always existed and continue to exist. Full time UPS,
>>> where you are always running off the inverter, are more expensive and
>>> far less common for end-user consumer computer use. But they do
>>> still exist.
>>
>> Would the standby UPS protect against surges?
>>
>> I have a low end APC ("standby"), half of the outlets are surge
>> protected - but the energy it would dissipate is very low compared
>> with a plain surge protector (e.g. 300 Joules versus 2000).
>>
>> The other half is battery protected and it does not says whether also
>> surge protected and that kind of worries me as from experience power
>> fluctuations are more frequent than plain interruptions.
>
> Cheap surge protectors use MOVs. MOVs are very cheap to make. And they
> can handle huge surges. One big disadvantage is they weaken from being
> hit a lot. Thus if you are really worried about it, but a cheap surge
> protector and plug your UPS into it. And replace the surge protector
> every years if you care.
>
> Since '81, I can't think of anything personally that cared if surges
> were there or not. I friend of mine did get help from surges from an
> elevator in the building (about in 1985). So okay I can see that. But
> with switching power supplies used nowadays, surge protection isn't that
> big of a deal for most people.
>