On 19 Oct 2006 23:02:45 -0700, "mehlREMOVETHIS@cyvest.com"
<mehl@cyvest.com> wrote in
<1161324165.049084.44980@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups. com>:

>My prior ISP was SBC, which carried this newsgroup.
>
>I asked DSLExtreme to carry it. Here is the response they received
>from SuperNews:
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>The "ibm.*" newsgroups are private to IBM's own servers, therefore we
>will not carry any of their newsgroups on our servers, because they are
>not public newsgroups. Additionally, "ibm.ibmpc.thinkpad" is not valid
>even on IBM's own servers - it is a newsgroup someone created on Google
>that only exists on a few other hosts worldwide.
>
>Traffic to any of the "ibm.*" newsgroups that exist on Google will
>never propagate to IBM's servers, and nothing on IBM's servers is
>available on Usenet in general, because their newsgroups are private.
>You can only access the "ibm.*" newsgroups via IBM's own servers.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Does this make sense to those of you that know about such things?

Yes -- here's what my contact at Supernews had to say:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
John-

I apologize, but we do not carry any IBM newsgroups on our servers
because the IBM newsgroups are, according to IBM's own site, private
to their own servers and therefore should not be carried on any other
servers. Additionally, as you said, it's not a valid IBM newsgroup
(so even if we did carry IBM's newsgroups, we would not carry that
newsgroup because it's not valid according to their own newsgroup list).

Google, I believe, is the site where 'ibm.ibmpc.thinkpad' was
originally created, and other sites have added simply because it has
traffic - not caring whether or not IBM wants it carried elsewhere.
We do not carry any private newsgroups on our servers - if the site
where the newsgroup(s) originate request that other sites not carry
them (which IBM has done).
....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this group should have been created as an alt.* newsgroup, or as
comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad, or even in comp.sys.ibm.*, although with the
Lenovo deal that would be confusing.

Supernews is very important. I see two ways to resolve the issue,
either by creating:

1. comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad - the greatest legitimacy, but a lengthy
and painful process with no guarantee of success.

2. alt.sys.laptops.thinkpad - much easier, but would only succeed if we
can migrate this traffic there, and would take some time to get going.

What do you think?

--
Best regards, The perfect external DVD burner? See
John Navas http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...21e67cf01a182d

I would prefer comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad despite the process being
longer as I know my news agent will carry it if it is legitimately in
the traditional hierarchy. It would also be nice if one or more of
the thinkpads.com (bbs?) groups could be made a gateway to the new
group. If I recall correctly, having an existing and active service
(e.g. mailing list, bbs) can be considered a positive when creating a
new group.

The harder question is whether the group should be moderated. I
personally like moderated groups and would be willing to devote
sometime to act as a co-moderator with others. However, I have no
objections to an unmoderated group and would be happier with an
unmoderated group than no group at all. Same thing holds for a group
in the alt hierarchy, I'd rather have an alt group than none at all.

Just the opinions of a potetntially happy new newsgroup partiticpant,
-Chris

************************************************** ***************************
Chris Clark Internet : compres@world.std.com
Compiler Resources, Inc. Web Site : http://world.std.com/~compres
23 Bailey Rd voice : (508) 435-5016
Berlin, MA 01503 USA fax : (978) 838-0263 (24 hours)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> writes:

> 1. comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad - the greatest legitimacy, but a lengthy
> and painful process with no guarantee of success.

The newsgroup creation process has actually changed recently, and
should be a whole lot less painful now than it was a year or so ago. The
new system is documented here:

http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.p...icies:creation

The new system has the proponent (you) work to convince a central
board (the Big-8 Management Board; I am a member) that creating the group
would be a good idea. The RFD process isn't much different than before,
but there is no Usenet-wide vote, and the whole process ideally runs much
more quickly and smoothly.

At first glance, I'd say that the idea has merit. My major
concerns are:

- Is there enough traffic?
- Is this going to hurt comp.sys.laptops?
- Are the suggested mailing list gateways okay with this?

If you're interested in putting together a formal RFD, you can
work with the Group Mentors to write up the appropriate documents, at
group-mentors@lists.big-8.org .

- Tim Skirvin (skirv@big-8.org)
--
http://www.big-8.org/ Big-8 Management Board
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/ Skirv's Homepage <FISH>< <*>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:01:31 -0500, tskirvin@killfile.org (Tim Skirvin)
wrote in <tskirvin.20061020180134$4887@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> :

> At first glance, I'd say that the idea has merit.

Thanks! I'm definitely leaning toward comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad

> My major
>concerns are:
>
> - Is there enough traffic?

ibm.ibmpc.thinkpad gets 10 articles per day despite not being a real
newsgroup. I'm hopeful we could pick up (migrate) that traffic, and
pick up new traffic due to being carried more widely, for a total of
perhaps 20 articles per day fairly quickly.

> - Is this going to hurt comp.sys.laptops?

Although some traffic might be siphoned off, there's relatively little
in comp.sys.laptops that's specific to ThinkPads, and I think a
ThinkPad-specific subgroup might actually help -- my experience is that
generic catchall newsgroups like comp.sys.laptops are hard for less
experienced people (e.g., those just searching for "thinkpad") to find,
and so I think comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad might increase total traffic
and stimulate further development of the comp.sys.laptops.* hierarchy.

> - Are the suggested mailing list gateways okay with this?

I don't know of any -- anyone?

--
Best regards,
John Navas

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:27:00 -0400, Chris F Clark
<cfc@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in
<sddmz7qhp97.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com>:

>I would prefer comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad despite the process being
>longer as I know my news agent will carry it if it is legitimately in
>the traditional hierarchy.

I agree.

>It would also be nice if one or more of
>the thinkpads.com (bbs?) groups could be made a gateway to the new
>group.

Can you be more specific? Would you undertake that?

>If I recall correctly, having an existing and active service
>(e.g. mailing list, bbs) can be considered a positive when creating a
>new group.

I'm personally not thrilled by many gateways, which seem to result in
more junk and spam, but I'm not opposed to the idea.

>The harder question is whether the group should be moderated. I
>personally like moderated groups and would be willing to devote
>sometime to act as a co-moderator with others. However, I have no
>objections to an unmoderated group and would be happier with an
>unmoderated group than no group at all.

It's a tradeoff -- many people tend to avoid moderated newsgroups. In
any event, since comp.sys.laptops is unmoderated, I think is would make
sense for comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad to be unmoderated as well. But my
mind is open.

>Same thing holds for a group
>in the alt hierarchy, I'd rather have an alt group than none at all.

Agreed, but I'm definitely leaning toward comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad

>Just the opinions of a potetntially happy new newsgroup partiticpant,

Great -- that's much of the battle!

--
Best regards,
John Navas

I was reading <news:glvhj29j7sdb3ah6vl31p6mq4ehgf7b510@4ax.com >, made
by the entity known as John Navas, that requests spam to be sent to
<spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> and I became inspired,

> Supernews is very important. I see two ways to resolve the issue,
> either by creating:
>
> 1. comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad - the greatest legitimacy, but a
> lengthy and painful process with no guarantee of success.
>
> 2. alt.sys.laptops.thinkpad - much easier, but would only succeed
> if we can migrate this traffic there, and would take some time to
> get going.
>
> What do you think?

Go to a different server,
http://groupsearch.aacity.net/cgi-bi...&sorting=group
--
d:J0han; Certifiable me
http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup
I drank of the purifying Nirang, the sterile urine of the spotless white bull of which there is but one in ten thousand. I am the wearer of The Secret Girdle that once belonged to DE.

I wrote:
>It would also be nice if one or more of
>the thinkpads.com (bbs?) groups could be made a gateway to the new
>group.

Jahn Navas replied:
> Can you be more specific? Would you undertake that?

Yes, I will post something on thinkpads.com to get a feel for how they
feel and see if I can't facilitate the process. I'm not a moderator
there, so I can't make any official statement on their behalf, but I
can do some leg work to see which way the wind is blowing.

If nothing else, the posting should help people know that a newsgroup
may be coming and they can aggitate for (or against) it.

Thank you for taking the lead on creating this newsgroup!
-Chris

************************************************** ***************************
Chris Clark Internet : compres@world.std.com
Compiler Resources, Inc. Web Site : http://world.std.com/~compres
23 Bailey Rd voice : (508) 435-5016
Berlin, MA 01503 USA fax : (978) 838-0263 (24 hours)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Chris F Clark" wrote:

> Yes, I will post something on thinkpads.com to get a feel for how they
> feel
>

We pretty much feel meh. Create it, don't create it, thinkpads.com will
still be there.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:52:17 GMT, in news.groups, John Navas
<spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:

<snip story of people trying to access a bogus newsgroup,
ibm.ibmpc.thinkpad.

>I see two ways to resolve the issue,
>either by creating:
>
> 1. comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad - the greatest legitimacy, but a lengthy
>and painful process with no guarantee of success.

Not so difficult now as it used to be. See below.

> 2. alt.sys.laptops.thinkpad - much easier, but would only succeed if we
>can migrate this traffic there, and would take some time to get going.

Exactly.

>What do you think?

I think it should go where the traffic already is. If the thinkpad
traffic is mainly in comp.*, go for comp.*; if the thinkpad traffic is
mostly in alt.comp.*, go with alt.comp.*.

My guess is that most of the traffic is already in comp.*, so if I were
you, I'd opt for comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad.

It's not as hard as it used to be to get a new comp.* group. The old
voting system has been scraped, and we now have something called The
Big-8 Management Board which decides whether or not to create a new
group. You /still/ have to do a formal RFD, and you /still/ have to
have a discussion, but that's it. Once the discussion is over, the
board makes the decision. You can learn more about this new procedure
at http://www.big-8.org/
--
Henrietta K. Thomas
Successful proponent of soc.support.vision-impaired.

[Posted to comp.sys.laptops, news.groups]

Proposed Big 8 newsgroup comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad would be for
discussions pertaining to ThinkPad (IBM and Lenovo) laptop computers.

RATIONALE

ThinkPad is a major and very popular brand of laptop/notebook computers,
formerly part of IBM, now part of Lenovo, with many unique features that
set the brand apart from other brands of laptop computers.

Discussions pertaining to ThinkPad laptop computers are currently
carried in:

* comp.sys.laptops:
- generic laptop discussion group
- traffic of 40 articles per day, down from peak of over 100 per day
- will remain for discussions not pertaining to ThinkPad
- Google archive of over 170,000 articles

* ibm.ibmpc.thinkpad:
- invalid newsgroup not carried by many news providers
- traffic of 10 articles per day
- Google archive of over 9,000 articles

* <http://forum.thinkpads.com/>
- broken down into multiple specific topics
- over 15,000 registered users
- over 200,000 articles

The existence of ibm.ibmpc.thinkpad and the popularity of
forum.thinkpads.com are evidence of the demand for a ThinkPad
brand-specific forum.

Once it becomes carried widely, comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad is expected to
have initial traffic of at least 20 articles per day.

comp.sys.laptops would remain for discussions not pertaining to ThinkPad
computers. Although some traffic would presumably be siphoned off into
comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad, the creation of a specific subgroup might
re-stimulate interest enough to result in more traffic, and possibly in
the creation of other comp.sys.laptops.* subgroups.

HISTORY

comp.sys.laptops was created in about 1990. Traffic apparently peaked
at over 100 articles per day before declining to its current level of
about 40 articles per day. This decline is believed to be more due to
siphoning off by brand-specific web forums (e.g., forum.thinkpads.com),
and lack of brand focus, not any lack of interest in laptop computers.

Adding specific subgroups (IBM, Toshiba, etc.) to comp.sys.laptops was
proposed in 1994-1995, but apparently went nowhere:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?&as_epq=comp.sys.laptops.toshiba&as_ugroup= comp.sys.laptops>

CHARTER

comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad is for discussions pertaining to ThinkPad (IBM
and Lenovo) laptop computers. It is NOT an official support forum for
IBM or Lenovo.

General Usenet "netiquette" guidelines as posted in
news.announce.newusers and news.answers shall apply to this newsgroup.
In particular, participants are asked to show courtesy and respect for
other participants, and to avoid the use of offensive language,
excessive quoting, or long signature blocks. Participants are encouraged
to use descriptive Subjects (e.g., "T41 won't boot after disk swap"
rather than just "Help").

The following types of posts are prohibited:
* Off-topic (not directly related to ThinkPad laptop computers)
* Binaries (except for appended text-encoded digital signatures)
* Spam (including excessive cross-posting)
* Make-money-fast or other chain or fraudulent schemes
* Work-at-home or other scams
* Commercial advertisements, "infomercials," or announcements
* Auction notices (e.g., eBay)
* Forged articles (anonymous articles are allowed)
* Personal insults or repetitive flaming (attacks)
* Employment (help and/or position wanted) notices

The use of e-mail addresses from articles posted to this group for the
purpose of sending junk (mass unsolicited) e-mail or for compiling a
list so that others may do so is specifically prohibited.

In the absence of moderation, prohibitions can, of course, only be
enforced by the collective will of the group and/or by after-the-fact
complaints to the offender's service provider. Nevertheless, it is hoped
that this charter will help in getting complaints resolved.

MODERATOR INFO:

The group is unmoderated.

--
Best regards,
John Navas

"John Navas" <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
news:glvhj29j7sdb3ah6vl31p6mq4ehgf7b510@4ax.com
> ... What do you think?

I think yes.

--
Bill

[followups set]

John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:

> [Posted to comp.sys.laptops, news.groups]
>
> Proposed Big 8 newsgroup comp.sys.laptops.thinkpad would be for
> discussions pertaining to ThinkPad (IBM and Lenovo) laptop computers.

You may not be aware that an RFD is not official unless it is
crossposted to news.announce.newgroups - that part of the old group
creation process has not changed.

See the document at
<http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=policies:creation> for
details on the new creation process. The proposal sounds reasonable to
me, but it isn't official until it is properly cross-posted to nan.

--
Kathy - help for new users at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>
OE-quotefix can fix OE:
<http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/>