In Outlook MESSAGES (riddon windows) the menus do not work as before.
In Word DOCUMENTS (ribbon windows) the new scheme is to NOT display the
menu but to rather pop up a message that says you can keep typing BUT ONLY
if you have them fully memorized.

What I need is an option to put the OLD MENUS (Alt-Key access) and display
of them back.

Does this exist?

[If not, the idiots that invented, designed, and approved these changes
should be fired or put to work packing product boxes in manufacturing.]

Not only do these menus not work like every other version of Office, they
work like no other programs previously built for Windows.

One of the nice things about Windows is that if you can run one program you
can run them all (as long as you understand the programs purpose) without
having
to learn a bunch of archane differences.

--
Herb Martin, MCSE, MVP
http://www.LearnQuick.Com
(phone on web site)

Nope.

> Not only do these menus not work like every other version of Office, they
> work like no other programs previously built for Windows.
Yes, it's called innovation.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
RibbonCustomizer Add-In: http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer
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***
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"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" <pdschmid@nospam.mvps.org> wrote in message
news:OykjI5VSHHA.4464@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Nope.
>
>> Not only do these menus not work like every other version of Office, they
>> work like no other programs previously built for Windows.
> Yes, it's called innovation.

Thanks -- I suppose that I will recommend staying with Office 2003 or
going to Open Office then.

And I am serious about this.

> --------------
> http://pschmid.net
> ***
> Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
> ***
> Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
> RibbonCustomizer Add-In: http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer
> OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
> ***
> Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed
>

Give the new Ribbon UI at least a week-long chance (of actually working
with it only) and have non-power-users try it as well. The biggest
problem the UI has is that it is simply a brand-new thing nobody knows.
It took me a month during the beta (when the apps were quite unstable
and made working with them hard) to get used to the new UI in a way that
I didn't want to go back to 2003. Also, users who know 2003 very well
are going to have the hardest time with it.
It's a big change and it takes time to get used to it. There are some
rough edges that you might encounter, but those can be addressed one by
one, but only after you are over the "the entire Ribbon UI sucks" thing.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
RibbonCustomizer Add-In: http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed


"Herb Martin" <news@learnquick.com> wrote in message
news:Oou5M7VSHHA.1228@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:

> "Patrick Schmid [MVP]" <pdschmid@nospam.mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:OykjI5VSHHA.4464@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> > Nope.
> >
> >> Not only do these menus not work like every other version of Office, they
> >> work like no other programs previously built for Windows.
> > Yes, it's called innovation.
>
> Thanks -- I suppose that I will recommend staying with Office 2003 or
> going to Open Office then.
>
> And I am serious about this.
>
> > --------------
> > http://pschmid.net
> > ***
> > Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
> > ***
> > Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
> > RibbonCustomizer Add-In: http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer
> > OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
> > ***
> > Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed
> >

"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" <pdschmid@nospam.mvps.org> wrote in message
news:%23eUCVGWSHHA.4276@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Give the new Ribbon UI at least a week-long chance (of actually working

I gave it two already and it is attrocious. This is not 'innovation' but
rather
"let's change things and then claim it is better."

> with it only) and have non-power-users try it as well. The biggest problem
> the UI has is that it is simply a brand-new thing nobody knows.

No, the biggest problem is that it dumps YEARS of muscle memory and even
when it could makes things compatible it just dumps the old stuff
completely,
as in Outtlook messages.

Without an option to restore the old menus I will NOT be installing or
recommending
this to anyone.

> It took me a month during the beta (when the apps were quite unstable and
> made working with them hard) to get used to the new UI in a way that

A month? A week for no real improvement is too long.


> I didn't want to go back to 2003. Also, users who know 2003 very well are
> going to have the hardest time with it.

Even 2003 introduced some stupid stuff but you could mostly avoid it.

> It's a big change and it takes time to get used to it. There are some
> rough edges that you might encounter, but those can be addressed one by
> one, but only after you are over the "the entire Ribbon UI sucks" thing.

Then there should be an option to restore it.

Whoever designed this is a MORON -- and I used to teach UI design
when I worked for MS.

--
Herb Martin, MCSE, MVP
http://www.LearnQuick.Com
(phone on web site)

There are a lot of things wrong with the menus & toolbars UI for Office.
If you are interested in reading the background on the Ribbon UI, see
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/10/09/58. It's an index to the blog posts
of the PM in charge of the Ribbon UI. His blog gives a lot of the
background of the Ribbon and talks a lot about its design. It makes for
quite some interesting reading.

> No, the biggest problem is that it dumps YEARS of muscle memory and even
> when it could makes things compatible it just dumps the old stuff
> completely,
> as in Outtlook messages.
All the keyboard shortcuts from 2003 (including the menu shortcuts)
should work without a problem. They are not displayed, but they lead to
the same functionality.

> Without an option to restore the old menus I will NOT be installing or
> recommending
> this to anyone.
>
> > It took me a month during the beta (when the apps were quite unstable and
> > made working with them hard) to get used to the new UI in a way that
>
> A month? A week for no real improvement is too long.
Back in beta 1, the Office apps were crashing all the time. It's quite
hard to learn a new UI when you have a crash every few minutes then file
a bug for it, etc.

> > It's a big change and it takes time to get used to it. There are some
> > rough edges that you might encounter, but those can be addressed one by
> > one, but only after you are over the "the entire Ribbon UI sucks" thing.
>
> Then there should be an option to restore it.
Read the reasoning behind the Ribbon UI. In short, MS designed a new UI
because they didn't know anymore how to put all the new 2007 features in
a reasonable way into the old one.
BTW, you can create a resemblance of the old UI on the Ribbon. You'd
have to use RibbonX for it (the new customization model), it will take
quite a bit to do it and it won't look exactly like 2003, but it can be
done.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
RibbonCustomizer Add-In: http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" <pdschmid@nospam.mvps.org> wrote in message
news:%231AaZcWSHHA.3980@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> There are a lot of things wrong with the menus & toolbars UI for Office.
> If you are interested in reading the background on the Ribbon UI, see
> http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/10/09/58. It's an index to the blog posts of
> the PM in charge of the Ribbon UI. His blog gives a lot of the background
> of the Ribbon and talks a lot about its design. It makes for quite some
> interesting reading.

Thanks.

>> A month? A week for no real improvement is too long.

> Back in beta 1, the Office apps were crashing all the time. It's quite
> hard to learn a new UI when you have a crash every few minutes then file a
> bug for it, etc.

There should be no need to "learn a new UI".

Can you tell me for instance how one would add a signature MANUALLY
to an email without touching the Mouse and without memorize a specific
key?

(This was trivial in all other versions of Outlook, just Alt-Insert and down
or accelerator visable on the screen menu etc.)

And now do the same for all of those other commands on the menus?

>> Then there should be an option to restore it.

> Read the reasoning behind the Ribbon UI. In short, MS designed a new UI
> because they didn't know anymore how to put all the new 2007 features in a
> reasonable way into the old one.

And thus they have managed to make "all the new features" even harder to
use -- especially the common ones in favor of the esoteric being added.


> BTW, you can create a resemblance of the old UI on the Ribbon. You'd have
> to use RibbonX for it (the new customization model), it will take quite a
> bit to do it and it won't look exactly like 2003, but it can be done.

As long as I can get the KEYBOARD to work resonably similarly and
reasonably visually.

Well I can answer my own question about "how to add a signature from
the keyboard -- using visual cues and not memorizing every accelerator
key".

And now this stupid thing appears to be even MORE MORONIC than
before:

Alt-N for Insert, G for Signatures, and finally you get a menu you can
navigate with arrow keys.

Alt-N for iNsert almost makes sense, except that appears to be an
ARBITRARY accident:

Alt-H: Message
Alt-I: Insert
Alt-P Options
Alt-O Formatted text (just when you thought it was at least
alphabetic)
Alt-L Developer

And reading those blogs about "why" then did these stupid things is entirely
unconvincing -- an obvious apologia for something that they subconsciously
(or now consciously) know is flawed reasoning.

Take Developer, I use such things fairly regularly but it doesn't even need
a
main menu item -- most people don't use it often and those that do don't
mind
looking for it in a submenu.


--
Herb Martin, MCSE, MVP
http://www.LearnQuick.Com
(phone on web site)

It makes sense. Alt-I is taken by the Office 2003 style menu shortcut
that is still available in 2007. If you remember the keyboard keys for
getting this in 2003, then you can still use those. So with Alt-I taken,
they picked N.

> Take Developer, I use such things fairly regularly but it doesn't even need
> a
> main menu item -- most people don't use it often and those that do don't
> mind
> looking for it in a submenu.
You are a power user, not the vast majority of all users. While you
might be able to find something hidden in a submenu, a majority of users
probably cannot.
The thing you need to realize is that the ribbon is not designed for
power users who know where everything they need is in 2003. Those users
simply hate the ribbon because it is a big change.

Ask yourself. How much of your resentment is because you don't know your
way around anymore and feel like a beginner again and how much is due to
this being a really big change from what you are used to?

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
RibbonCustomizer Add-In: http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

I was a little put off when I first saw the new ribbon and the changes too.
But, I gave it a fair shot, and got used to it pretty quickly. I like the
current ribbon much better than the previous and it's second nature. In fact,
not only do I think it's actually "easier to use", I'd fight if I had to go
back.


"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" wrote:

> It makes sense. Alt-I is taken by the Office 2003 style menu shortcut
> that is still available in 2007. If you remember the keyboard keys for
> getting this in 2003, then you can still use those. So with Alt-I taken,
> they picked N.
>
> > Take Developer, I use such things fairly regularly but it doesn't even need
> > a
> > main menu item -- most people don't use it often and those that do don't
> > mind
> > looking for it in a submenu.
> You are a power user, not the vast majority of all users. While you
> might be able to find something hidden in a submenu, a majority of users
> probably cannot.
> The thing you need to realize is that the ribbon is not designed for
> power users who know where everything they need is in 2003. Those users
> simply hate the ribbon because it is a big change.
>
> Ask yourself. How much of your resentment is because you don't know your
> way around anymore and feel like a beginner again and how much is due to
> this being a really big change from what you are used to?
>
> Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
> --------------
> http://pschmid.net
> ***
> Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
> ***
> Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
> RibbonCustomizer Add-In: http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer
> OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
> ***
> Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed
>
>

"Mitch Ruth" <MitchRuth@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:608D5822-2AAF-41D2-99F1-A92B0D06D40D@microsoft.com...
>I was a little put off when I first saw the new ribbon and the changes too.
> But, I gave it a fair shot, and got used to it pretty quickly. I like the
> current ribbon much better than the previous and it's second nature. In
> fact,
> not only do I think it's actually "easier to use", I'd fight if I had to
> go
> back.

I have given it more than a fair shot and it is atrocious.

Even were it marginally an improvement it destroys the
GUI-compatibility between Office and 10,000 other Windows
programs.

We, and many other admins and consultants, I run into are now
recommending AGAINST upgrade.

Likely we will have to do so one day -- or switch to Open Office --
but even though we have ALWAYS been Microsoft Office lovers
we will not put this on willingly.

--
Herb Martin, MCSE, MVP
http://www.LearnQuick.Com
(phone on web site)

Gawd what a horror. MS added a lot of bugs when they released Office
2003, but as a downgrade it was nowhere near as significant as the
latest disaster.

Like they say - - fire everybody who proposed, programmed, or consented
to the "ribbon".

<<All the keyboard shortcuts from 2003 (including the menu shortcuts)
should work without a problem. They are not displayed, but they lead
to
the same functionality.>>
No, they do NOT work.Try the key sequence for
Table>Select>Table
or
Table>Convert>TableToText

Surprise. IT DOES NOT WORK.


--
mwitthoft
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Hi M,

The Alt key menu shortcuts were, for the most part, preserved.
For example in the two you mentioned. With the cursor in a table:

Alt A, C, T works for Word's
Table=>Select=>Table in both Word 2003 and Word 2007
Alt A, V, B works for Word's
Table=>Convert=>Table to Text

(Assuming you're using a U.S. English language keyboard layout in Windows in both cases).

==============
<<"mwitthoft" <mwitthoft.2pgprd@DoNotSpam.com> wrote in message news:mwitthoft.2pgprd@DoNotSpam.com...
[snip]No, they do NOT work.Try the key sequence for
Table>Select>Table
or
Table>Convert>TableToText

Surprise. IT DOES NOT WORK.


--
mwitthoft>>
--

Bob Buckland ?:-)
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*