On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:23 -0400, jim wrote:

> I have been chatting with people about my frustration with getting
> simple stuff to work "out-of-the-box" with Linux.
>
> Things like simply plugging into a network and being able to browse XP
> folders on a peer to peer XP network (that means no server and no
> authentication needed) that are not password protected. Still don't
> have an answer to that one....
>
> But, yesterday, I ran into a shining example of one reason that FOSS
> will never work for small business (which is MUST to be able to
> legitimately challenge Microsoft's monopoly).
>
> While I was testing some software in a Linux environment, I came across
> an area in which it would not work as advertised by the authors. I
> raised some polite concern (really...I was polite) about the problem in
> a user forum specific to this software, only to be told politely to
> rtfm.
>
> I re-rtfm. The problem persisted, so I raised my concerns again. Again
> I was told to rtfm. Again I re-rtfm and returned with the same
> questions that were unanswered by the manual.
>
> This time I was politely informed where I could reach the authors of the
> software. I went there and we went through the whole rtfm, re-rtfm loop
> another 2 or three times until they finally asked to see my data. I
> sent them my data files.
>
> In about an hour, they confirmed that there was a problem. Great! Now
> they'll jump right on it - because everyone wants their code to work
> like they say it will, right?
>
> Well, not really. I offered to help where I could (sacrificing a goat,
> providing beer or money) but was told that the only help needed was to
> fix the code. Unfortunately for me, I don't know C coding - so I am SOL.
>
> Small businesses (which are 90+% of all businesses) are called "small
> businesses" because they are small. This generally means no in-house
> programmers. So, small businesses are at the mercy of the coders that
> provide the software that they run on.
>
> In this instance, I am at the mercy of these coders.
>
> As nice as they are, this "I'll get to it when I can" attitude is just
> not acceptable to small businesses. They lose market share. They lose
> customers and they lose money when software doesn't work as advertised
> in tfm.
>
> This is why FOSS just doesn't work for the majority of businesses (which
> are small businesses).
>
> While I move on to look for proprietary sources to replace the broken
> open sourced software, I am again reminded that the FOSS movement still
> "just doesn't get it" where small business is concerned.
>
> If it doesn't affect your earning a living or some other important
> aspect of your life, FOSS may be just fine. But, if its important, its
> important enough to pay to have it done right and supported.
>
> jim

1) don't tell me MS is perfect.
2) MS would have already solved the problem - right?

Jesus Christ, people. Why are you even arguing with this guy? He shows
the very definition of trolling - storming into a newsgroup dedicated to
something and bashing it without listening to counter-arguments etc.

Just plonk him already and stop bumping this sad little topic. Although
Although I'm (partially) a Linux user myself I do think that he may have
raised some valid points (if we were to generalize some specific issues
he mentioned) BUT he did it in the very worst manner and probably in the
wrong place. That's why he deserves no further attention...

Best regards,

Lim-Dul

jim wrote:
> "dennis@home" <dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote in message
>> That is the wrong attitude!
>
> Wrong attitude?!
>
> Dude, I have simply been looking for answers. And, I have been accused of
> being a troll, mocked, lied to and generally told to piss off by people that
> either (a) don't have a clue as to what the answers may actually be or (b)
> are simply Linux Zealots who are too busy hating to offer a hand to someone
> trying to make the switch to Linux.
>
> There is definitely a wrong attitude in these Linux NGs....but it didn't
> arrive with me.
>
It sure didn't, but your posts so far have done nothing but perpetuate
it. Every post you make just turns people off even more. Trust me when I
say that's not the way to inspire someone to help - here or anywhere else.

I have been self-employed for 46 years in a small business, one that
grew from a childhood enterprise. I don't have a clue when it comes to
coding, or for solving your problem in the way you want it solved. But I
can tell you this much: if this is the way you approach all those who
supply your inputs, your business is doomed. If you want someone who is
providing something to you for free (or even those who do it for pay) to
go the extra mile for you, you have to cooperate, not confront. From the
sound of it, you need them more than they need you. You would do well to
remember that.

TJ

jim wrote:

Folks, what most of you ignored is this is "his experience." Secondly, only
a moron would claim Linux is a finished work. It is not. That is not a
slam, merely the truth. But then no piece of software is truly a "finished
work."

The "faithful" will label folks like Jim as "trolls." In so doing they are
merely proving just how immature many in the Linux community are.

To Jim, it isn't a finished work, just notice how many apps do not have that
magical digit to the left of the decimal point. FOSS may well mature to
the point where stuff works on all platforms. That day is not today, but
it may well be in the not too distant future.

Deb

Feverishly pounding upon a keyboard Dr. Deb typed:

<snip>
> FOSS may well mature to the point where stuff works on all platforms.
<snip>

MS products fail that test of yours, too. In fact, no OS works on very
platform, but of them all Linux/FreeBDS cover the most. Research it for
yourself.

--
sk8r-365
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of
their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.-- Matthew 13:43

"TJ" <TJ@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:g2r503$99b$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> jim wrote:
>> "dennis@home" <dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote in message
>>> That is the wrong attitude!
>>
>> Wrong attitude?!
>>
>> Dude, I have simply been looking for answers. And, I have been accused
>> of being a troll, mocked, lied to and generally told to piss off by
>> people that either (a) don't have a clue as to what the answers may
>> actually be or (b) are simply Linux Zealots who are too busy hating to
>> offer a hand to someone trying to make the switch to Linux.
>>
>> There is definitely a wrong attitude in these Linux NGs....but it didn't
>> arrive with me.
>>
> It sure didn't, but your posts so far have done nothing but perpetuate it.
> Every post you make just turns people off even more. Trust me when I say
> that's not the way to inspire someone to help - here or anywhere else.
>
> I have been self-employed for 46 years in a small business, one that grew
> from a childhood enterprise. I don't have a clue when it comes to coding,
> or for solving your problem in the way you want it solved. But I can tell
> you this much: if this is the way you approach all those who supply your
> inputs, your business is doomed. If you want someone who is providing
> something to you for free (or even those who do it for pay) to go the
> extra mile for you, you have to cooperate, not confront. From the sound of
> it, you need them more than they need you. You would do well to remember
> that.

I'll be honest with you TJ, I don't expect an honest answer in these groups.
I am posting here more out of sheer desperation than in any hopes of
actually getting an answer.

I've been in enough Linux groups to know that the best things they are for
is accusing those trying to adopt Linux more of being trolls, bashing
Microsoft and praising Linux - while offering ****ed little in the way of
actual help to anyone that asks.

Do I want help? ****ed right.

Will I get it here? I don't think it exists.

jim

"ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:6bcgs3F3b5i0gU1@mid.individual.net...
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:23 -0400, jim wrote:
>
>> I have been chatting with people about my frustration with getting
>> simple stuff to work "out-of-the-box" with Linux.
>>
>> Things like simply plugging into a network and being able to browse XP
>> folders on a peer to peer XP network (that means no server and no
>> authentication needed) that are not password protected. Still don't
>> have an answer to that one....
>>
>> But, yesterday, I ran into a shining example of one reason that FOSS
>> will never work for small business (which is MUST to be able to
>> legitimately challenge Microsoft's monopoly).
>>
>> While I was testing some software in a Linux environment, I came across
>> an area in which it would not work as advertised by the authors. I
>> raised some polite concern (really...I was polite) about the problem in
>> a user forum specific to this software, only to be told politely to
>> rtfm.
>>
>> I re-rtfm. The problem persisted, so I raised my concerns again. Again
>> I was told to rtfm. Again I re-rtfm and returned with the same
>> questions that were unanswered by the manual.
>>
>> This time I was politely informed where I could reach the authors of the
>> software. I went there and we went through the whole rtfm, re-rtfm loop
>> another 2 or three times until they finally asked to see my data. I
>> sent them my data files.
>>
>> In about an hour, they confirmed that there was a problem. Great! Now
>> they'll jump right on it - because everyone wants their code to work
>> like they say it will, right?
>>
>> Well, not really. I offered to help where I could (sacrificing a goat,
>> providing beer or money) but was told that the only help needed was to
>> fix the code. Unfortunately for me, I don't know C coding - so I am SOL.
>>
>> Small businesses (which are 90+% of all businesses) are called "small
>> businesses" because they are small. This generally means no in-house
>> programmers. So, small businesses are at the mercy of the coders that
>> provide the software that they run on.
>>
>> In this instance, I am at the mercy of these coders.
>>
>> As nice as they are, this "I'll get to it when I can" attitude is just
>> not acceptable to small businesses. They lose market share. They lose
>> customers and they lose money when software doesn't work as advertised
>> in tfm.
>>
>> This is why FOSS just doesn't work for the majority of businesses (which
>> are small businesses).
>>
>> While I move on to look for proprietary sources to replace the broken
>> open sourced software, I am again reminded that the FOSS movement still
>> "just doesn't get it" where small business is concerned.
>>
>> If it doesn't affect your earning a living or some other important
>> aspect of your life, FOSS may be just fine. But, if its important, its
>> important enough to pay to have it done right and supported.
>>
>> jim
>
> 1) don't tell me MS is perfect.

I didn't. I won't.

> 2) MS would have already solved the problem - right?

It's not their problem. They aren't the ones playing catch-up.

When you control the monopoly, helping another system come in would only
weaken your grip. No self-respecting monopoly is going to do that.

jim

"Lim-Dul" <lim_dul_@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
news:48510f85$0$15077$f69f905@mamut2.aster.pl...
> Jesus Christ, people. Why are you even arguing with this guy? He shows the
> very definition of trolling - storming into a newsgroup dedicated to
> something and bashing it without listening to counter-arguments etc.
>
> Just plonk him already and stop bumping this sad little topic. Although
> Although I'm (partially) a Linux user myself I do think that he may have
> raised some valid points (if we were to generalize some specific issues he
> mentioned) BUT he did it in the very worst manner and probably in the
> wrong place. That's why he deserves no further attention...

I came here after going to the wrong place - the linux advocates group.
They sent me here.

Could I have phrased my questions or responses better? Sure. But, its hard
to smile while you're getting beat up.

jim

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:04:02 -0400, jim wrote:

> "ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote in message
> news:6bcgs3F3b5i0gU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:23 -0400, jim wrote:
>>
>>> I have been chatting with people about my frustration with getting
>>> simple stuff to work "out-of-the-box" with Linux.
>>>
>>> Things like simply plugging into a network and being able to browse XP
>>> folders on a peer to peer XP network (that means no server and no
>>> authentication needed) that are not password protected. Still don't
>>> have an answer to that one....
>>>
>>> But, yesterday, I ran into a shining example of one reason that FOSS
>>> will never work for small business (which is MUST to be able to
>>> legitimately challenge Microsoft's monopoly).
>>>
>>> While I was testing some software in a Linux environment, I came
>>> across an area in which it would not work as advertised by the
>>> authors. I raised some polite concern (really...I was polite) about
>>> the problem in a user forum specific to this software, only to be
>>> told politely to rtfm.
>>>
>>> I re-rtfm. The problem persisted, so I raised my concerns again.
>>> Again I was told to rtfm. Again I re-rtfm and returned with the same
>>> questions that were unanswered by the manual.
>>>
>>> This time I was politely informed where I could reach the authors of
>>> the software. I went there and we went through the whole rtfm,
>>> re-rtfm loop another 2 or three times until they finally asked to see
>>> my data. I sent them my data files.
>>>
>>> In about an hour, they confirmed that there was a problem. Great! Now
>>> they'll jump right on it - because everyone wants their code to work
>>> like they say it will, right?
>>>
>>> Well, not really. I offered to help where I could (sacrificing a
>>> goat, providing beer or money) but was told that the only help needed
>>> was to fix the code. Unfortunately for me, I don't know C coding - so
>>> I am SOL.
>>>
>>> Small businesses (which are 90+% of all businesses) are called "small
>>> businesses" because they are small. This generally means no in-house
>>> programmers. So, small businesses are at the mercy of the coders that
>>> provide the software that they run on.
>>>
>>> In this instance, I am at the mercy of these coders.
>>>
>>> As nice as they are, this "I'll get to it when I can" attitude is just
>>> not acceptable to small businesses. They lose market share. They
>>> lose customers and they lose money when software doesn't work as
>>> advertised in tfm.
>>>
>>> This is why FOSS just doesn't work for the majority of businesses
>>> (which are small businesses).
>>>
>>> While I move on to look for proprietary sources to replace the broken
>>> open sourced software, I am again reminded that the FOSS movement
>>> still "just doesn't get it" where small business is concerned.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't affect your earning a living or some other important
>>> aspect of your life, FOSS may be just fine. But, if its important,
>>> its important enough to pay to have it done right and supported.
>>>
>>> jim
>>
>> 1) don't tell me MS is perfect.
>
> I didn't. I won't.
>
>> 2) MS would have already solved the problem - right?
>
> It's not their problem. They aren't the ones playing catch-up.
>
> When you control the monopoly, helping another system come in would only
> weaken your grip. No self-respecting monopoly is going to do that.
>
> jim

What are you talking about? My point is - what response do you think you
would have gotten from MS if you had reported a similar problem to them? I
suspect they would have been even less sympathetic. I've never known them
to fix ANY problem in less than six months - and then only if it is a
major security issue.

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:59:41 -0500, Dan C wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:23 -0400, jim wrote:
>
>> I have been chatting with people about my frustration with getting
>> simple stuff to work "out-of-the-box" with Linux.


___________________
/| /| | |
||__|| | Please do |
/ O O\__ NOT |
/ \ feed me |
/ \ \ Dan C |
/ _ \ \ ______________|
/ |\____\ \ ||
/ | | | |\____/ ||
/ \|_|_|/ \ __||
/ / \ |____| ||
/ | | /| | --|
| | |// |____ --|
* _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ // |
/ _ \\ _ // | /
* / \_ /- | - | |
* ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________

jim wrote:
> "Lim-Dul" <lim_dul_@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
> news:48510f85$0$15077$f69f905@mamut2.aster.pl...
>> Jesus Christ, people. Why are you even arguing with this guy? He shows the
>> very definition of trolling - storming into a newsgroup dedicated to
>> something and bashing it without listening to counter-arguments etc.
>>
>> Just plonk him already and stop bumping this sad little topic. Although
>> Although I'm (partially) a Linux user myself I do think that he may have
>> raised some valid points (if we were to generalize some specific issues he
>> mentioned) BUT he did it in the very worst manner and probably in the
>> wrong place. That's why he deserves no further attention...
>
> I came here after going to the wrong place - the linux advocates group.
> They sent me here.
>
> Could I have phrased my questions or responses better? Sure. But, its hard
> to smile while you're getting beat up.
>
> jim
>
>


COLA is probably the worst place to go. There are some here that are bad
but when you come in with an attitude that's all you'll get back. When
the attitude leaves you'll get more help. You can also try
Ubuntuforums.org. I find more answers there than here.
caver1

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:05:37 -0400, jim wrote:


> "Lim-Dul" <lim_dul_@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
> news:48510f85$0$15077$f69f905@mamut2.aster.pl...
>> Jesus Christ, people. Why are you even arguing with this guy? He shows
>> the very definition of trolling - storming into a newsgroup dedicated
>> to something and bashing it without listening to counter-arguments etc.
>>
>> Just plonk him already and stop bumping this sad little topic. Although
>> Although I'm (partially) a Linux user myself I do think that he may
>> have raised some valid points (if we were to generalize some specific
>> issues he mentioned) BUT he did it in the very worst manner and
>> probably in the wrong place. That's why he deserves no further
>> attention...
>
> I came here after going to the wrong place - the linux advocates group.
> They sent me here.
>
> Could I have phrased my questions or responses better? Sure. But, its
> hard to smile while you're getting beat up.

It helps if you don't invite people to beat you up.

--
"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!"

Feverishly pounding upon a keyboard Christopher Hunter typed:

<snip>
> The latest form of ransom malware is positively scary -
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=1251

That's just ugly!

> Just /another/ reason to dump Windoze...

Got that *right* !

--
sk8r-365
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul
is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew
judgment to the Gentiles. -- Matthew 12:18

On 2008-06-12 19:33, caver1 wrote:
> COLA is probably the worst place to go. There are some here that are bad
> but when you come in with an attitude that's all you'll get back. When
> the attitude leaves you'll get more help. You can also try
> Ubuntuforums.org. I find more answers there than here.
> caver1

I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have gotten more help on the
Ubuntuforums if the first couple of posts looked like the posts on this
newsgroup. ;-)

Besides - Jim DID get some advice, I'd say more than he deserved with
this attitude, even though his "help requests" looked more like showing
his discontent with Linux in general instead and I almost expected him
to simply leave this OS be if he hates it so much...

Best regards,

Lim-Dul

"sk8r-365" <sk8r-365@sk8r.debian.etch.invalid.org> wrote in message
news:qLednR2Xb_hO9szVnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@bresnan.com. ..
> Feverishly pounding upon a keyboard Christopher Hunter typed:
>
> <snip>
>> The latest form of ransom malware is positively scary -
>>
>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=1251
>
> That's just ugly!

Totally ineffective though, you just restore your backup.