On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:58:53 -0400, jim wrote:

> For me, the goal is always to acheive the goals of a given task or
> project within the parameters of technical expertise, money and time
> available to the project. If a hammer helps me to do this, or a
> chainsaw helps, or both, it matters not a whit to me.

Poor analogies lead to poor reasoning which leads to poor results. The
simple homespun wisdom of our forefathers is a lousy guide to the
complexities of the digital age.

Neither Linux nor Windows is a hammer, or a chainsaw.

I guess a Linux or Windows DVD would be equally good for cutting down a
tree, but I would bet that both would be slower than the chainsaw.

jim wrote:
> For example....
>
> I downloaded BackTrack 3 and ran the Live CD just fine. It detects my USB
> wireless card and everything.
>
> So, I wanted to make a more permanent installation of BackTrack 3 to run
> when I wanted and to use it to learn more about Linux in general.
>
> I followed directions on creating the vmware virtual machine manually (to
> override the SCSI disk in favor of IDE) and I launched the new VM using the
> ISO as my CD drive and allowing the VM to boot into the live BackTrack 3 CD.
>
> Once in, I created 2 partitions (hda1 and hda2) to use for my BackTrack 3
> install and swap files, and I ran mkfs.ext3, mkswap, mkdir and mount to
> create my environment and prepare for install.
>
> I then ran the BackTrack 3 install (which does state that it has not been
> tested - although the current version came out in December of 2007).
>
> But, when I rebooted, instead of simply launching the way the Live CD did, I
> now get a red box asking me what OS to load (only BackTrack is shown) and I
> have to log in with root/toor and launch the kde graphical desktop manually.
>
> None of that bothers me.
>
> But, what does bother me is that the vmware installed version will not see
> my USB wireless device when the live cd version sees it just fine. WTF?
>
> I've spent 7 hours with this distro - trying to get it into a VM so that I
> could actually save things to the drive and use it as a desktop and I'm no
> closer now than I was 7 hours ago.
>
> THIS is why Windows has such a great following. Is Windows insecure? Yes.
> Is Windows bloated and slow (esp. Vista)? Yes. But, can you get things to
> work in Windows faster and easier than in Linux? HELL YES!!
>
> I want to like Linux. I really do. But, I find it a lot like driving a
> car. If I had to work on my car as much as I have had to work on Linux
> distros that I have tried and I got as much out of it as I have gotten out
> of them I'd walk and get there faster.
>
> jim
>
>
I've run different flavors of Linux for years, never heard of Backtrack.



--
Claude Hopper :)

? ? ¥

Claude Hopper (11) 5. ? wrote:
> jim wrote:
>> For example....
>>
>> I downloaded BackTrack 3 and ran the Live CD just fine. It detects my
>> USB wireless card and everything.
>>
>> So, I wanted to make a more permanent installation of BackTrack 3 to
>> run when I wanted and to use it to learn more about Linux in general.
>>
>> I followed directions on creating the vmware virtual machine manually
>> (to override the SCSI disk in favor of IDE) and I launched the new VM
>> using the ISO as my CD drive and allowing the VM to boot into the live
>> BackTrack 3 CD.
>>
>> Once in, I created 2 partitions (hda1 and hda2) to use for my
>> BackTrack 3 install and swap files, and I ran mkfs.ext3, mkswap, mkdir
>> and mount to create my environment and prepare for install.
>>
>> I then ran the BackTrack 3 install (which does state that it has not
>> been tested - although the current version came out in December of 2007).
>>
>> But, when I rebooted, instead of simply launching the way the Live CD
>> did, I now get a red box asking me what OS to load (only BackTrack is
>> shown) and I have to log in with root/toor and launch the kde
>> graphical desktop manually.
>>
>> None of that bothers me.
>>
>> But, what does bother me is that the vmware installed version will not
>> see my USB wireless device when the live cd version sees it just
>> fine. WTF?
>>
>> I've spent 7 hours with this distro - trying to get it into a VM so
>> that I could actually save things to the drive and use it as a desktop
>> and I'm no closer now than I was 7 hours ago.
>>
>> THIS is why Windows has such a great following. Is Windows insecure?
>> Yes. Is Windows bloated and slow (esp. Vista)? Yes. But, can you get
>> things to work in Windows faster and easier than in Linux? HELL YES!!
>>
>> I want to like Linux. I really do. But, I find it a lot like driving
>> a car. If I had to work on my car as much as I have had to work on
>> Linux distros that I have tried and I got as much out of it as I have
>> gotten out of them I'd walk and get there faster.
>>
>> jim
>>
> I've run different flavors of Linux for years, never heard of Backtrack.
>
>
>
*** Cross posted: alt.linux alt.os.linux comp.os.linux ***

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BackTrack>

--
1PW

Mark Madsen wrote:
>
> Neither Linux nor Windows is a hammer, or a chainsaw.
>

Oh, I don't know. I've heard of several people who felt like they'd been
hammered after using Windows at work all day. Oh, wait - my mistake.
They wanted to GET hammered after using Windows all day.

TJ

"Dave Uhring" <daveuhring******.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.06.01.19.58.52.704691******.com...
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:38:31 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
>
>> He is having a problem with the interaction between VMware and linux that
>> doesn't happen with VMware and windows if you bother to read his posts.
>
> In vmware the hardware is hidden from the guest OS. Windows disregards
> normal behavior in this matter and accesses any hardware it discovers,
> which is one of the primary reasons that it is so ****ed insecure.

And you think linux doesn't?
Linux probes for all the hardware it can find and installs drivers just like
windows does.
There is no real difference.

>> Its probably a simple driver issue as linux doesn't appear to recognise
>> his NIC, so if you know anything useful about linux why not help?
>
> If he wants to ask a Linux question I would be happy to help but my
> experience with wireless hardware is limited. His problem is not Linux,
> however; it is the simple fact that he is NOT using Linux but rather
> VMWare with a guest OS which has no access to his hardware.

Obviously not true or windows wouldn't be able to find it in the VM.

>
> If he really wants to have Linux access his hardware he can **** well run
> Linux, either from live optical media or install it.

Or just decide its not worth the hassle you get from linux advocates and
stick with windows?
>

"goarilla <"kevin<punt>paulus|"@|skynet" <"punt> wrote in message
news:48430086$0$2954$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
> dennis@home wrote:
>>
>>
>> "goarilla <"kevin<punt>paulus|"@|skynet" <"punt> wrote in message
>> news:484282d7$0$2990$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
>>> dennis@home wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "goarilla <"kevin<punt>paulus|"@|skynet" <"punt> wrote in message
>>>> news:48427bc9$0$2954$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> i dare you to install windows in a VM running on windows
>>>>> with a BartPE disk !
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that just a case of..
>>>> booting the disk in the VM..
>>>> formatting the C: drive..
>>>> make it bootable..
>>>> copy the contents of the i386 directory to the disk..
>>>> reboot the VM from the C drive..
>>>> running setup from the i386 directory you copied.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> well ... try it
>>> then boot your windows and plugin a USB to see if it works !
>>
>> Which VM?
>>
>>
> your windows guest vm on your windows host

Which VM?
They have different machine models.

On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:40:23 -0400, "jim" <jim@home.net> wrote:

>For example....
>
>I downloaded BackTrack 3 and ran the Live CD just fine. It detects my USB
>wireless card and everything.
>
>So, I wanted to make a more permanent installation of BackTrack 3 to run
>when I wanted and to use it to learn more about Linux in general.
>
>I followed directions on creating the vmware virtual machine manually (to
>override the SCSI disk in favor of IDE) and I launched the new VM using the
>ISO as my CD drive and allowing the VM to boot into the live BackTrack 3 CD.
>
>Once in, I created 2 partitions (hda1 and hda2) to use for my BackTrack 3
>install and swap files, and I ran mkfs.ext3, mkswap, mkdir and mount to
>create my environment and prepare for install.
>
>I then ran the BackTrack 3 install (which does state that it has not been
>tested - although the current version came out in December of 2007).
>
>But, when I rebooted, instead of simply launching the way the Live CD did, I
>now get a red box asking me what OS to load (only BackTrack is shown) and I
>have to log in with root/toor and launch the kde graphical desktop manually.
>
>None of that bothers me.
>
>But, what does bother me is that the vmware installed version will not see
>my USB wireless device when the live cd version sees it just fine. WTF?
>
>I've spent 7 hours with this distro - trying to get it into a VM so that I
>could actually save things to the drive and use it as a desktop and I'm no
>closer now than I was 7 hours ago.
>
>THIS is why Windows has such a great following. Is Windows insecure? Yes.
>Is Windows bloated and slow (esp. Vista)? Yes. But, can you get things to
>work in Windows faster and easier than in Linux? HELL YES!!
>
>I want to like Linux. I really do. But, I find it a lot like driving a
>car. If I had to work on my car as much as I have had to work on Linux
>distros that I have tried and I got as much out of it as I have gotten out
>of them I'd walk and get there faster.
>
>jim
>

Linux is only for computer geeks who spend their entire lives on the
computer. I spend a few hours on the computer per week, and that's
the way it's going to stay. Computers are useful tools, but only if
the tool does the job without making the job harder.

It's like a homeowner I met when I did construction work. He hired my
crew to to build a bedroom in his unfinished attic. He bought an air
compressor, then spent a fortune on air nailers and other costly air
tools, and insisted we use these things, because he said he "did not
want to pay us for all the extra hours using a hammer". We'd shoot
ten nails and the compressor would run out of air, so we would wait 5
minutes for it to refill. So we began using a hammer. He came up
there and had a fit that we were using hammers, so he spent another
fortune on a huge compressor, which was too heavy for one man to get
to the attic. It took us several hours to attempt to fight that
compressor up the stairs, damaged the stairs and walls surrounding
them, and finally took it back outside and told him to buy more air
hoses and we'd run the hoses up to the attic and leave the compressor
outside. That all worked, as long as we only used one air nailer at
the same time, or there was not enough pressure and the nailers would
jam upm and we'd waste a half hour and a pile of nails to unjam them.

We wasted three days fighting with these air tools, and he was paying
3 men by the hour for all that wasted time, and he started complaining
that we were not getting the job done fast enough. That's when I told
him to go buy some standard nails, and put away all the air tools, and
we'd get the job done ten times faster. He refused to buy the nails,
and said we did not know what we were doing, and began tossing our
hammers out the open window. That's when I handed him the bill for
the hours we had done, and told him to hire someone else.

Linux reminds me of this guy. Spend almost all your time getting it
to work, and once and awhile you might get to actually do some work
with your computer. Most of your time will be wasted fighting with
the operating system. Yeah, Windows is insecure and bloated and has
other bugs, but it installs easily, and gets the job done. And while
MS wants everyone to use Vista, I'm perfectly happy using Windows98.
It gets the job done with little fussing with the OS, and dont need a
ton of ram and other power to function. It's a tool, it does the job,
and the sooner I can put down the tool, the sooner I can enjoy a cold
one, or something else with the wife.

I guess some people are born geeks, but for me, I like simplicity.
Computers are toys to some people, and I find most Linux users seem to
approach them as toys. I do enjoy spending a little time online, but
my computer is mostly just a tool used to get information off the web,
send email, type letters, and manage my digital photos. I'll never be
a geek. so I'll never use Linux again !!!!

"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:tZn0k.1871$%z2.1618@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> For example....
>
> I downloaded BackTrack 3 and ran the Live CD just fine. It detects my USB
> wireless card and everything.
>
> So, I wanted to make a more permanent installation of BackTrack 3 to run
> when I wanted and to use it to learn more about Linux in general.
>
> I followed directions on creating the vmware virtual machine manually (to
> override the SCSI disk in favor of IDE) and I launched the new VM using
> the ISO as my CD drive and allowing the VM to boot into the live BackTrack
> 3 CD.
>
> Once in, I created 2 partitions (hda1 and hda2) to use for my BackTrack 3
> install and swap files, and I ran mkfs.ext3, mkswap, mkdir and mount to
> create my environment and prepare for install.
>
> I then ran the BackTrack 3 install (which does state that it has not been
> tested - although the current version came out in December of 2007).
>
> But, when I rebooted, instead of simply launching the way the Live CD did,
> I now get a red box asking me what OS to load (only BackTrack is shown)
> and I have to log in with root/toor and launch the kde graphical desktop
> manually.
>
> None of that bothers me.
>
> But, what does bother me is that the vmware installed version will not see
> my USB wireless device when the live cd version sees it just fine. WTF?
>
> I've spent 7 hours with this distro - trying to get it into a VM so that I
> could actually save things to the drive and use it as a desktop and I'm no
> closer now than I was 7 hours ago.
>
> THIS is why Windows has such a great following. Is Windows insecure?
> Yes. Is Windows bloated and slow (esp. Vista)? Yes. But, can you get
> things to work in Windows faster and easier than in Linux? HELL YES!!
>
> I want to like Linux. I really do. But, I find it a lot like driving a
> car. If I had to work on my car as much as I have had to work on Linux
> distros that I have tried and I got as much out of it as I have gotten out
> of them I'd walk and get there faster.

I gave up on the idea of using a VM. I installed the Linux OS and now dual
boot with Vista. (Another entire day to get these 2 children to play well
on my Sony Vaio laptop.)

Tomorrow I will tackle trying to place the Linux OS on a USB flash drive so
that I can use it on different PCs, for doing demonstrations of software in
Linux that there really is no substitute for in Windows (unless you spend
about $600 for special hardware and software drivers - which I don't want to
invest in a project who's potential for being profitable is questionable at
best).

It should be ready to go sometime in September. (just kidding, my little
zealots)

I'll let you know if I can pull it off.

jim

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:03:44 -0500, joeaverage wrote:

<snip>

> I guess some people are born geeks, but for me, I like simplicity.

So, you were born stupid.

> Computers are toys to some people, and I find most Linux users seem to
> approach them as toys. I do enjoy spending a little time online, but
> my computer is mostly just a tool used to get information off the web,
> send email, type letters, and manage my digital photos. I'll never be
> a geek. so I'll never use Linux again !!!!

And stayed that way until this point in your life.

Bugger off, Win-droid.


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups.
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 00:19:44 -0400, jim wrote:

>> I want to like Linux. I really do. But, I find it a lot like driving a
>> car. If I had to work on my car as much as I have had to work on Linux
>> distros that I have tried and I got as much out of it as I have gotten out
>> of them I'd walk and get there faster.

> I gave up on the idea of using a VM. I installed the Linux OS and now dual
> boot with Vista. (Another entire day to get these 2 children to play well
> on my Sony Vaio laptop.)

n00b.

> Tomorrow I will tackle trying to place the Linux OS on a USB flash drive so
> that I can use it on different PCs, for doing demonstrations of software in
> Linux that there really is no substitute for in Windows (unless you spend
> about $600 for special hardware and software drivers - which I don't want to
> invest in a project who's potential for being profitable is questionable at
> best).

It would be easier to just use a Live-CD, n00b.

> It should be ready to go sometime in September. (just kidding, my little
> zealots)
>
> I'll let you know if I can pull it off.

Don't bother. You won't, and we don't care anyway.


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups.
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:39:34 -0500, Dan C
<youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:03:44 -0500, joeaverage wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I guess some people are born geeks, but for me, I like simplicity.
>
>So, you were born stupid.
>
>> Computers are toys to some people, and I find most Linux users seem to
>> approach them as toys. I do enjoy spending a little time online, but
>> my computer is mostly just a tool used to get information off the web,
>> send email, type letters, and manage my digital photos. I'll never be
>> a geek. so I'll never use Linux again !!!!
>
>And stayed that way until this point in your life.
>
>Bugger off, Win-droid.

And yet another reason to avoid linux is conceited smart-assed
know-it-all geek assholes like yourself.

<joeaverage@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:6k07445fv77cgepqc8bqelpvpi0k2rhp26@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:39:34 -0500, Dan C
> <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:03:44 -0500, joeaverage wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> I guess some people are born geeks, but for me, I like simplicity.
>>
>>So, you were born stupid.
>>
>>> Computers are toys to some people, and I find most Linux users seem to
>>> approach them as toys. I do enjoy spending a little time online, but
>>> my computer is mostly just a tool used to get information off the web,
>>> send email, type letters, and manage my digital photos. I'll never be
>>> a geek. so I'll never use Linux again !!!!
>>
>>And stayed that way until this point in your life.
>>
>>Bugger off, Win-droid.
>
> And yet another reason to avoid linux is conceited smart-assed
> know-it-all geek assholes like yourself.

It is certainly a turn-off for those just trying to get into Linux. And, I
suspect, has something to do with the limited number of Linux users.

If the Linux community really wanted to grow they'd do a better job of
self-policing these assholes.

I thank you for your point of view and for daring to post it here.

jim

"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:BwK0k.3032$%z2.1306@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
> news:tZn0k.1871$%z2.1618@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> For example....
>>
>> I downloaded BackTrack 3 and ran the Live CD just fine. It detects my
>> USB wireless card and everything.
>>
>> So, I wanted to make a more permanent installation of BackTrack 3 to run
>> when I wanted and to use it to learn more about Linux in general.
>>
>> I followed directions on creating the vmware virtual machine manually (to
>> override the SCSI disk in favor of IDE) and I launched the new VM using
>> the ISO as my CD drive and allowing the VM to boot into the live
>> BackTrack 3 CD.
>>
>> Once in, I created 2 partitions (hda1 and hda2) to use for my BackTrack 3
>> install and swap files, and I ran mkfs.ext3, mkswap, mkdir and mount to
>> create my environment and prepare for install.
>>
>> I then ran the BackTrack 3 install (which does state that it has not been
>> tested - although the current version came out in December of 2007).
>>
>> But, when I rebooted, instead of simply launching the way the Live CD
>> did, I now get a red box asking me what OS to load (only BackTrack is
>> shown) and I have to log in with root/toor and launch the kde graphical
>> desktop manually.
>>
>> None of that bothers me.
>>
>> But, what does bother me is that the vmware installed version will not
>> see my USB wireless device when the live cd version sees it just fine.
>> WTF?
>>
>> I've spent 7 hours with this distro - trying to get it into a VM so that
>> I could actually save things to the drive and use it as a desktop and I'm
>> no closer now than I was 7 hours ago.
>>
>> THIS is why Windows has such a great following. Is Windows insecure?
>> Yes. Is Windows bloated and slow (esp. Vista)? Yes. But, can you get
>> things to work in Windows faster and easier than in Linux? HELL YES!!
>>
>> I want to like Linux. I really do. But, I find it a lot like driving a
>> car. If I had to work on my car as much as I have had to work on Linux
>> distros that I have tried and I got as much out of it as I have gotten
>> out of them I'd walk and get there faster.
>
> I gave up on the idea of using a VM. I installed the Linux OS and now
> dual boot with Vista. (Another entire day to get these 2 children to play
> well on my Sony Vaio laptop.)
>
> Tomorrow I will tackle trying to place the Linux OS on a USB flash drive
> so that I can use it on different PCs, for doing demonstrations of
> software in Linux that there really is no substitute for in Windows
> (unless you spend about $600 for special hardware and software drivers -
> which I don't want to invest in a project who's potential for being
> profitable is questionable at best).
>
> It should be ready to go sometime in September. (just kidding, my little
> zealots)
>
> I'll let you know if I can pull it off.

It went MUCH, MUCH smoother than the dual boot thing. I am now running
Backtracker 3 off a 2GB USB flash drive - and the performance is **** near
as good as it was dual booting it.

Nice.

But, it does not persist my changes. Any ideas on how I can get backtracker
3 on USB to persist my changes to the USB drive?

jim

"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:KwP0k.1732$8X4.476@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>

<snip>

>
> It went MUCH, MUCH smoother than the dual boot thing. I am now running
> Backtracker 3 off a 2GB USB flash drive - and the performance is **** near
> as good as it was dual booting it.
>
> Nice.
>
> But, it does not persist my changes. Any ideas on how I can get
> backtracker 3 on USB to persist my changes to the USB drive?

It's a few hours later and I'm stuck at "mounting aufs on union failed".

I am attempting to follow the directions at http://maddhat.com/?p=23 and
http://n00bhacker.blogspot.com/searc...20Installation.

The first site's directions got me to the point that I could have backtrack
3 running from my USB, but no changes were being saved.

The second tries to relay information to get your data to be persistent.

So far, mine isn't persistent. In fact, because of the "mounting aufs on
union failed" error, bt3 no longer loads from the USB drive.

Well, I'm tired as hell and going to get some sleep now.

Who knew penguins were so ****ed slippery?

jim

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 00:20:10 -0500, joeaverage wrote:

> And yet another reason to avoid linux is conceited smart-assed
> know-it-all geek assholes like yourself.

Oh, that's great logic, there. No wonder you have trouble with simple
tasks and concepts.

Run along and bother the other Win-droids, dimwit.



--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups.
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org