I am a relative newbie to Linux, but a long time user of windows I started
with release 1.03. I also have nearly 40yrs in IT (programmer, architect
and DBA).

I have several machines typically 512 Mb memory, AMD Athlon XP processor
and nVidia Graphics. I have two, which I am using as servers with 1Tb raid
5 each, running Fedora (6 or 7), configured as DNS, Apache, NFS and MySQL
servers. The rest have an average disk size of 80 GB. They are running W2K,
WinXP, and Mandriva (Gnome) as desktop PCs. The family uses the desktops
for such things as VOIP, iTunes, IM and general office functions. I also
use my machine to design home improvement projects.

I have tried Centos 4.3, Debian 4, Fedora 6 and 7RC1, Mandriva 10.2 and
2007.1, Suse 10.2, and Unbuntu xx and found each of them to be awkward to
use and setup. Part of the problem is the plethora of apps that come with
them; which apps are any good, which are "essential", etc?

Bearing in mind that:
a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface (too many years with
windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface even for the servers.
b) Fedora amongst others discourages the use of "proprietary"
software/drivers. I have found that this means apps like Beryl do not work.
Is there a way round this?
c) My lack of experience with Linux means that I need a distro with "good"
up to date documentation. Particularly documentation aimed at the server
end of things

Is Fedora the best choice for the servers, bearing in mind what I want to
do?
Is there a better choice for the desktop?
Would somebody recommend a good "book" on Linux and its systems?

TIA

ANO
--

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words:
freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Sir Winston Churchill

A.N.Other wrote:
> I am a relative newbie to Linux, but a long time user of windows I started
> with release 1.03. I also have nearly 40yrs in IT (programmer, architect
> and DBA).
>
> I have several machines typically 512 Mb memory, AMD Athlon XP processor
> and nVidia Graphics. I have two, which I am using as servers with 1Tb raid
> 5 each, running Fedora (6 or 7), configured as DNS, Apache, NFS and MySQL
> servers. The rest have an average disk size of 80 GB. They are running W2K,
> WinXP, and Mandriva (Gnome) as desktop PCs. The family uses the desktops
> for such things as VOIP, iTunes, IM and general office functions. I also
> use my machine to design home improvement projects.
>
> I have tried Centos 4.3, Debian 4, Fedora 6 and 7RC1, Mandriva 10.2 and
> 2007.1, Suse 10.2, and Unbuntu xx and found each of them to be awkward to
> use and setup. Part of the problem is the plethora of apps that come with
> them; which apps are any good, which are "essential", etc?
>
> Bearing in mind that:
> a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface (too many years with
> windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface even for the servers.

I do not recommend GUI for a server, it just uses up memory and CPU cycles for
no good use. A GUI less server is more responsive.


> b) Fedora amongst others discourages the use of "proprietary"
> software/drivers. I have found that this means apps like Beryl do not work.
> Is there a way round this?

All distros does that, but if you want to use the closed source nvidia
drivers, then you can use the livna repository at rpm.livna.org, that way you
install the drivers in the same way as any other application.


> c) My lack of experience with Linux means that I need a distro with "good"
> up to date documentation. Particularly documentation aimed at the server
> end of things

If you use CentOS you can use the documentation at www.redhat.com too, as it's
just a recompiled RHEL.


> Is Fedora the best choice for the servers, bearing in mind what I want to
> do?

It works as well as any other distro, but if you want a real server install,
then you really should look at SoL (Server optimized Linux), Trustix, Gentoo,
Source Mage Linux.


> Is there a better choice for the desktop?

It's a question about taste, of course it's easier as few different distros
you use, as then you don't have to keep in mind different configuration
methods and so on.


> Would somebody recommend a good "book" on Linux and its systems?

www.google.com


--

//Aho

On Sat, 19 May 2007 15:05:07 GMT, A.N.Other wrote:
>
> I have several machines typically 512 Mb memory, AMD Athlon XP processor
> and nVidia Graphics. I have two, which I am using as servers with 1Tb raid
> 5 each, running Fedora (6 or 7), configured as DNS, Apache, NFS and MySQL
> servers. The rest have an average disk size of 80 GB. They are running W2K,
> WinXP, and Mandriva (Gnome) as desktop PCs. The family uses the desktops
> for such things as VOIP, iTunes, IM and general office functions. I also
> use my machine to design home improvement projects.
>
> Bearing in mind that:
> a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface (too many years with
> windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface even for the servers.

Hmmm, Sounds like you need to pick a distribution where webmin is
closely intergrated with it.


> b) Fedora amongst others discourages the use of "proprietary"
> software/drivers.

Your proprietary drivers are a function of the vendor making them
proprietary. Because of that, linux distributions have to play by the
proprietary vendor's rules. Solution, make you pay the vendor's price
or do not include it in the Linux package you selected.

> I have found that this means apps like Beryl do not work.

Guessing that is a video/memory/cpu problem depending on what you mean
by "do not work".

> Is there a way round this?

Research hardware/drivers before you buy. Use hardware/software which is not
"proprietary"

Why did you buy mysql when you could have bought Oracle. 8-)

> c) My lack of experience with Linux means that I need a distro with "good"
> up to date documentation. Particularly documentation aimed at the server
> end of things

Heheheh, six/twelve month release cycles does not leave much time for
"good up to date documentation"


> Is there a better choice for the desktop?

There are 8 or more desktops. Install an find the one that suits you.
I like KDE a lot more than GNOME at home. At work fvwm was what I used.

Without walls and fences who need Windows and Gates let alone limits.
You seemed to be the problem.
Forget M$ and learn to use the tool that is best for the job at hand.

You seemed set in your ways and want to be Micro$not bound. I'll
recommend Mandriva running KDE desktop with webmin for your server
interface if you are not going to use the DrakeWizard packages.

NOTE: Most of your gui interfaces are just wrappers around command and config
files. Webmin does some checking, but you have to understand what the
fields mean and what they should contain.

> Would somebody recommend a good "book" on Linux and its systems?

Hehehehe, that sounds like http://tldp.org, not a /BOOK/

Get your linux basics down, then all you would need is a book on
whatever major application you want to manage.

For under the hood, there is http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz

Then for starters, there is
search Results 1-10 of about 23,500 for best linux book group:*linux*

--------- standard search tip follows ---------------------

Please bookmark the following, very large,
Frequently Asked Questions (faq) Search engine:

http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
key word(s) in the first box
*linux* in Newsgroup box. You need to use the two
asterisks around linux, pick English

If you want/need more control over the first box search,
http://www.google.com/help/refinesearch.html

--------- end standard search tip text ---------------------

J.O. Aho wrote:

> A.N.Other wrote:
....
>>Bearing in mind that:
>>a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface (too many years with
>>windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface even for the servers.
>
> I do not recommend GUI for a server, it just uses up memory and CPU cycles for
> no good use. A GUI less server is more responsive.

I recently had to buy another 10/100 ethernet card for a Pentium 75Mhz PC of
mine. Whilst looking I came across one which had the specs of Pentium
200MHz or higher. Only conclusion I can come to (as the card I bought works
fine in the PC[1]) for the high processor speed requirement is to account
that it's liable to be put into a [Windwos] box with a GUI.

[1] Actually it doesn't (system didn't see the card), but I have another PC
with a eth card that does work fine & the card I bought was put into that PC
to replace the one I've had to shuffle across - both eth cards are realtek
8139s, but the one I shuffled was bought quite a few years ago now.

"Robert Newson" <ReapNewsB@bullet3.fsnet.oc.ku> wrote in message
news:4650448D.8040604@bullet3.fsnet.oc.ku...
> J.O. Aho wrote:
>
>> A.N.Other wrote:
> ...
>>>Bearing in mind that: a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface
>>>(too many years with windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface
>>>even for the servers.
>>
>> I do not recommend GUI for a server, it just uses up memory and CPU
>> cycles for
>> no good use. A GUI less server is more responsive.
>
> I recently had to buy another 10/100 ethernet card for a Pentium 75Mhz PC
> of mine. Whilst looking I came across one which had the specs of Pentium
> 200MHz or higher. Only conclusion I can come to (as the card I bought
> works fine in the PC[1]) for the high processor speed requirement is to
> account that it's liable to be put into a [Windwos] box with a GUI.
>
> [1] Actually it doesn't (system didn't see the card), but I have another
> PC with a eth card that does work fine & the card I bought was put into
> that PC to replace the one I've had to shuffle across - both eth cards are
> realtek 8139s, but the one I shuffled was bought quite a few years ago
> now.

One possible reason for that requirement was that it needed the MMX
instruction set which came in from all 200mhz cpu's up i beleive. and some
166.
Just a guess

> a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface (too many years with
> windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface even for the servers.
> b) Fedora amongst others discourages the use of "proprietary"
> software/drivers. I have found that this means apps like Beryl do not work.
> Is there a way round this?

Yeah logging in to the CLI (as you can't do this while X is running), ie
name, password, "cd /" to the directory that you download the latest
nvidia driver to (nvnews.net), "chmod a+x NV<esc><esc>" [enter] "sh
NV<esc><esc>" [enter] to install the proprietary nvidia driver (rather
then using a software repository for your distribution) is a real pain in
the ass.

It's three whole steps and will take you only a few seconds.

Pla wrote:

> "chmod a+x NV<esc><esc>" [enter] "sh NV<esc><esc>"

As you use the 'sh' there is no point in make it executible

"chmod a+x NV<tab>" [enter] "./NV<tab>" [enter]

or

"sh NV<tab>" [enter]


--
//Aho

On Sat, 19 May 2007 15:05:07 +0000, A.N.Other wrote:

> I am a relative newbie to Linux, but a long time user of windows I started
> with release 1.03. I also have nearly 40yrs in IT (programmer, architect
> and DBA).
>
> I have several machines typically 512 Mb memory, AMD Athlon XP processor
> and nVidia Graphics. I have two, which I am using as servers with 1Tb raid
> 5 each, running Fedora (6 or 7), configured as DNS, Apache, NFS and MySQL
> servers. The rest have an average disk size of 80 GB. They are running W2K,
> WinXP, and Mandriva (Gnome) as desktop PCs. The family uses the desktops
> for such things as VOIP, iTunes, IM and general office functions. I also
> use my machine to design home improvement projects.
>
> I have tried Centos 4.3, Debian 4, Fedora 6 and 7RC1, Mandriva 10.2 and
> 2007.1, Suse 10.2, and Unbuntu xx and found each of them to be awkward to
> use and setup. Part of the problem is the plethora of apps that come with
> them; which apps are any good, which are "essential", etc?

If you find all of those to be 'awkward to use and setup' then I'd suggest
you stay with MS.


>
> Bearing in mind that:
> a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface (too many years with
> windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface even for the servers.
> b) Fedora amongst others discourages the use of "proprietary"
> software/drivers. I have found that this means apps like Beryl do not work.
> Is there a way round this?
> c) My lack of experience with Linux means that I need a distro with "good"
> up to date documentation. Particularly documentation aimed at the server
> end of things
>
> Is Fedora the best choice for the servers, bearing in mind what I want to
> do?
> Is there a better choice for the desktop?
> Would somebody recommend a good "book" on Linux and its systems?
>
> TIA
>
> ANO

"J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote in
news:5b8krgF2rgqtiU1@mid.individual.net:
[..]
>
> I do not recommend GUI for a server, it just uses up memory and CPU
> cycles for no good use. A GUI less server is more responsive.
>

I agree that the use of a GUI on a server is a waste.
However, as a newbie coming over from the dark side, a GUI would be
useful until I learn the ropes. Bit Twister mentioned WebMin, I tried on
one of the servers and it seems to solve some of my immediate needs.

Is it possible to start/stop the GUI on demand, that way I could use
webmin for the "easy stuff", use the CLI when I can and as a last resort
fire up the GUI stuff.


[..]
> All distros does that, but if you want to use the closed source nvidia
> drivers, then you can use the livna repository at rpm.livna.org, that
> way you install the drivers in the same way as any other application.
>

Thanks, I had forgotten about livna.



> If you use CentOS you can use the documentation at www.redhat.com too,
> as it's just a recompiled RHEL.
{..}
> It works as well as any other distro, but if you want a real server
> install, then you really should look at SoL (Server optimized Linux),
> Trustix, Gentoo, Source Mage Linux.

I am trying to stick to the better know distros now, just because there
are more people to ask when I run into trouble.
Which would you consider "better" CentOS or Fedora.


> It's a question about taste, of course it's easier as few different
> distros you use, as then you don't have to keep in mind different
> configuration methods and so on.
>

Sound advice, thanks.

>> Would somebody recommend a good "book" on Linux and its systems?
>
> www.google.com
>

Of course.


As I said in my original posting "Part of the problem is the plethora of
apps that come with them", the sheer number of apps available is
confusing, for instance I downloaded the latest Debian distro and it
came with three DVDs of apps. I don't have that much life expectancy to
try them all.
I would appreciate some advice on the good, the bad and the ugly.

ANO
--

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words:
freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Sir Winston Churchill

ray <ray@zianet.com> wrote in
news:pan.2007.05.21.19.06.08.287422@zianet.com:

>
> If you find all of those to be 'awkward to use and setup' then I'd
> suggest you stay with MS.
>
>

Helpful!


ANO
--

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words:
freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Sir Winston Churchill

On Mon, 21 May 2007 16:05:13 GMT, A.N.Other wrote:

> However, as a newbie coming over from the dark side, a GUI would be
> useful until I learn the ropes. Bit Twister mentioned WebMin, I tried on
> one of the servers and it seems to solve some of my immediate needs.
> I agree that the use of a GUI on a server is a waste.

So now you have a webmin service/deamon running on the server. Oh k.

> Is it possible to start/stop the GUI on demand,

On Mandriva linux setting default runlevel 3 does not start 'GUI'.
To start 'GUI' you login and enter startx
if you want a GUI desktop manager.

> that way I could use webmin for the "easy stuff", use the CLI when I
> can and as a last resort fire up the GUI stuff.

Heheh, ssh into a system, and execute the "GUI stuff" (read application)
and see what happens.

If I want to run the Mandriva Control Center on a system, I just

ssh some_node
and there you are at the command line where you can do a
mcc

and up pops the GUI control center.

Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote in
news:slrnf4u7u3.c2d.BitTwister@wb.home.invalid:

[..]
>
> Hmmm, Sounds like you need to pick a distribution where webmin is
> closely intergrated with it.
>

Thanks. I installed webmin on one of the Fedora machines and it gets me
over some of the immediate problems. I can administer the servers while
I read up on the more interesting bits of Linux.

>
> Why did you buy mysql when you could have bought Oracle. 8-)
>

Wherever possible I am using the free version. I am retired now, SWMBO
doesn't like me spending more than I need too, she has the funny idea
that money should be spent on things like cruises, holidays etc., no
accounting for taste.

>
> Forget M$ and learn to use the tool that is best for the job at hand.
>

Understood, but in the meantime I need something that will allow me to
get things done while I learn!

> NOTE: Most of your gui interfaces are just wrappers around command and
> config files. Webmin does some checking, but you have to understand
> what the fields mean and what they should contain.
[..]
> Hehehehe, that sounds like http://tldp.org, not a /BOOK/
[..]
> For under the hood, there is http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz

Thanks, I'll have a look them ASAP.

> Then for starters, there is
> search Results 1-10 of about 23,500 for best linux book group:*linux*

Google is usually the first place I look for info, but in this case I
was wondering if people had found some of the info particularly useful.


ANO
--

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words:
freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Sir Winston Churchill

On Mon, 21 May 2007 16:29:09 GMT, A.N.Other wrote:
>
> Thanks. I installed webmin on one of the Fedora machines and it gets me
> over some of the immediate problems. I can administer the servers while
> I read up on the more interesting bits of Linux.

I assume you set the firewall on the servers to only allow a trusted
ip address access to webmin serice/deamon.

The port you want to protect will be 10000.

"Pla" <pla@oka.da> wrote in news:jX_3i.201313$aG1.151897@pd7urf3no:

>> a) I am not too comfortable with the CLI interface (too many years
>> with windows). Therefore, I would prefer a GUI interface even for the
>> servers. b) Fedora amongst others discourages the use of
>> "proprietary" software/drivers. I have found that this means apps
>> like Beryl do not work. Is there a way round this?
>
> Yeah logging in to the CLI (as you can't do this while X is running),
> ie name, password, "cd /" to the directory that you download the
> latest nvidia driver to (nvnews.net), "chmod a+x NV<esc><esc>"
> [enter] "sh NV<esc><esc>" [enter] to install the proprietary nvidia
> driver (rather then using a software repository for your
> distribution) is a real pain in the ass.
>
> It's three whole steps and will take you only a few seconds.

totally agree with you, if
1) I new that the site "nvnews.net" existed. Thanks you for telling me
about it.
2) that the said site had a a file called NV. ditto.
3) i don't think I need to do step 2 as NV would appear to be some sort of
script.

The "welcoming" tone of your reply underwhelms me. No wonder more people
aren't moving from M$ to linux.


ANO
--

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words:
freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Sir Winston Churchill

Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote in
news:slrnf53hsc.qov.BitTwister@wb.home.invalid:

Thanks, I've archived this msg for future reference.


ANO
--

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words:
freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Sir Winston Churchill