On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:04:56 +0100, mark south wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:56:35 -0600, ray wrote:
>
>> No real indication that the OP is looking for the smallest Live CD
>> available. IMHO Knoppix and Elive are much more fully featured.
>
> That's true, and yet the beginning Linux user is unlikely to make any
> significant use of about 3.9 GB of the stuff on the 4.0 GB Knoppix DVD....
>
> Actually DSL, Puppy, Austrumi, and Slax are far smaller than Knoppix and
> far easier to find one's way around at first boot.
>
> I run Puppy on one of my older laptops, it does everything a beginning
> user could require, except play DVDs, and that's only because the machine
> is too old to have a DVD drive :-)
>
> Mark

It may have changed; I have not tried Puppy for a year or so, but it
always appeared quite 'spartan' to me. I much prefer Elive.

* Sir Jackery wrote in alt.os.linux:

[...]

> I agree, but don't rely on the particular features of a distro. For
> example, don't learn RPM when using redhat, simply install from sources.
> You'll be better off in the long run as you will have a great deal more
> relevant knowledge.

That'll turn a newb right off.

> --
> Sir Jackery

Your sig is broken.

--
David
Women are always anxious to urge bachelors to matrimony; is it from charity,
or revenge?
-- Gustave Vapereau

* Sir Jackery wrote in alt.os.linux:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007, Stuzz wrote:

[...]

>> A noob 90% of the time with be coming from a Windows flavour, and this
>> would be what they 'like', since most likely they had a choice between
>> Windows, and Windows. Therefore to get a taste of Linux they would want to
>> start with something that tastes like Windows. They were force-fed
>> Windows, and want something similar until their pallet adjusts.


> It's not rocket science (: Sometimes the distro-specific features are more
> complicated than the standard UNIX alternatives. Have you ever dealt with
> RPM when it has problems? Yikes. I'll install from source over that any
> day.

That is plain silly. The dependency issues that you can run into can
cause much more harm than good for the newb. Using a particular distros
package installer is certainly the way to go. Even for a pro compiling
isn't always the right thing, unless you run gentoo or LFS that is.

--
David
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

Sir Jackery wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007, J. F. Cornwall wrote:
>
>> Sir Jackery wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007, Whirled Peas wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:53:27 GMT, "WGD" <wgd.roaming@verizon.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A reply to my post noted a site - Distrowatch.com - found MANY, many
>>>>> choices. How do I net it out to ONE??
>>>>>
>>>>> WayneD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, DistroWatch will overwhelm you at first. Start with their "Major
>>>> Distrobutions" page http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
>>>>
>>>> Do some reading, decide what appeals to you and go from there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Relying on distro features is the biggest mistake all these noobs are
>>> making. Why not just customize your system the way YOU like it, not
>>> someone else's preference.
>>
>>
>> Possibly because they (we) are new to the process? You know, that
>> whole learning what you're doing thing?
>
>
> I agree, but don't rely on the particular features of a distro. For
> example, don't learn RPM when using redhat, simply install from sources.
> You'll be better off in the long run as you will have a great deal more
> relevant knowledge.
>
> --
> Sir Jackery

So, how would I (as a new Linux user, used to just being an applications
programmer in a Solaris world, and having very little exposure to the
actual installation of anything) know any of this? There's a great deal
to be learned, even for someone used to dealing with a lot of Unixy
stuff. It can be daunting, and I sure can't fault anyone for wanting a
pre-built platform to stand on while testing the waters of something new.

Jim

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007, BlackTopBum wrote:

> DrE was all like, you know, and said something like...
>> You can always customize it the way you like it, but why would you do
>> that if someone else already did it for you?
>
> Your words are contradictory - "customize it the way you like" &
> "someone else already did it for you". For someone else to customise
> my system would require them to know exactly my peeves and wants.
>

I was thinking the same thing.

--Sir Jackery

WGD <wgd.roaming@verizon.net> wrote:
<snip>
> WayneD

Coolpost! :)

Soon to be riding in that same wagon... ;)

Alvin in AZ

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:25:28 -0600, ray wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:04:56 +0100, mark south wrote:
>
>> I run Puppy on one of my older laptops, it does everything a beginning
>> user could require, except play DVDs, and that's only because the
>> machine is too old to have a DVD drive :-)
>>
> It may have changed; I have not tried Puppy for a year or so, but it
> always appeared quite 'spartan' to me. I much prefer Elive.

That's your prerogative, I much prefer 80 MB downloads to 600 MB ones :-)

The standard Puppy has Seamonkey, Abiword, Gnumeric, Gaim, Gxine, Rox,
RXVT, Gparted, together with a collection of setup wizards (eg printer,
wireless, packages) and pile of little utilities. More than enough to get
started and find out how painless Linux is.

There are numerous good distros out there. Knoppix is excellent. But
starting with Knoppix is like diving into the pool naked when all one
wanted to do was take off one's shoes and cool one's toes.

--m.

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:18:09 +0000, alvinj wrote:

>> Jim was all like, you know, and said something like...
>
>> > ...Puppy...
>> **** Small Linux (a.k.a. DSL) is 50 MB and ****ed good, too.
>> http://www.****smalllinux.org/
>> BlackTopBum
>
> Oooo... either one or something like them, is what Dell should load on
> their machines? :)

Au contraire, Alvin. Dell doesn't sell anything that isn't capable of
running the largest, fanciest, and most capable Linux distros. DSL,
Puppy, Austrumi, and the like are fantastic for extending the life of
older machinery, or for carrying in your pocket: mini-CD + USB key =
ultralight portable :-)

If you can still find my email address in your inbox I'm happy to extend
this discussion offline.

Mark
--
****, still no signature.

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:33:46 -0700, Sir Jackery wrote:

>> Possibly because they (we) are new to the process? You know, that whole
>> learning what you're doing thing?

> I agree, but don't rely on the particular features of a distro. For
> example, don't learn RPM when using redhat, simply install from sources.

You're a little out of touch with reality. For someone new to Linux,
installing from sources is WAY beyond what they're ready for. To advise
folks to not learn how to use RPM's when using Redhat is just idiotic.
That's what they're there for, and the package managers make it relatively
foolproof for a noob to handle software. Yeah, I know that those package
managers and rpm's in general can have problems, but in the context of a
noob using Linux, they are invaluable.

> You'll be better off in the long run as you will have a great deal more
> relevant knowledge.

Horsefeathers.

--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:13:32 +0100, mark south wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:25:28 -0600, ray wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:04:56 +0100, mark south wrote:
>>
>>> I run Puppy on one of my older laptops, it does everything a beginning
>>> user could require, except play DVDs, and that's only because the
>>> machine is too old to have a DVD drive :-)
>>>
>> It may have changed; I have not tried Puppy for a year or so, but it
>> always appeared quite 'spartan' to me. I much prefer Elive.
>
> That's your prerogative, I much prefer 80 MB downloads to 600 MB ones :-)
>
> The standard Puppy has Seamonkey, Abiword, Gnumeric, Gaim, Gxine, Rox,
> RXVT, Gparted, together with a collection of setup wizards (eg printer,
> wireless, packages) and pile of little utilities. More than enough to get
> started and find out how painless Linux is.
>
> There are numerous good distros out there. Knoppix is excellent. But
> starting with Knoppix is like diving into the pool naked when all one
> wanted to do was take off one's shoes and cool one's toes.
>
> --m.

I believe that Knoppix is still available as a Live CD as well as the DVD
- I would be among the first to agree that the DVD is overkill for most
folks.

Didn't think I would create so many replies. Bottom Line (so far), I
dwnld'd Ubunto's 6.06 last night and made an ISO disk. (Had prev dwnld'd
6.10 that was either a bad dwnld or a bad file at the other end - had a few
errors.)

Was able to boot from this new disk. (Doing all of this to simply learn . .
.. . something new to me. For many, LINUX is the way to go, re Dell's plan
to sell Linux-based machines?)

I could not mount the existing drives, "see" or mount the partitions.

No printer driver. I guess I need to GoTo Brothers and HP for appropriate
Linux-based drivers.

WEB is working fine as is Open Office.

I'll still need to have MS's Windows available for appl that do not have
Linux offerings (or I am prepared to pay for them!). So . . . . . Is there
a way to switch from Windows (XP-MCE in my case) to an installed Linux (dumb
question I am inclined to think!) or is booting to the desired OS ALWAYS
necessary? Does MS's Virtual PC 2007 offer any advantage here?

BTW, I appreciate all the comments. Learning something along the way.

WayneD





<alvinj@XX.com> wrote in message news:etd4uk$jol$3@reader2.panix.com...
> WGD <wgd.roaming@verizon.net> wrote:
> <snip>
>> WayneD
>
> Coolpost! :)
>
> Soon to be riding in that same wagon... ;)
>
> Alvin in AZ

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:51:16 -0600, ray wrote:

> I believe that Knoppix is still available as a Live CD as well as the DVD
> - I would be among the first to agree that the DVD is overkill for most
> folks.

Indeed, having checked the download sites, you are right. I also noticed
that you skipped the points where I was right :-)

However, the small distros mentioned are still an order of magnitude
smaller than a full 700 MB CD image. This may matter to people with slow
connections or low patience thresholds.

Among large liveCDs it has to be said that Knoppix is a pretty good start.
I don't know why Klaus Knopper doesn't set up a proper organisation and
knock out a few of the softer targets like ... well, better not use names
or I'll start some flamage.

Mark
--
The guy with the signature that doesn't like to appear in public.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Dan C wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:33:46 -0700, Sir Jackery wrote:
>
>>> Possibly because they (we) are new to the process? You know, that whole
>>> learning what you're doing thing?
>
>> I agree, but don't rely on the particular features of a distro. For
>> example, don't learn RPM when using redhat, simply install from sources.
>
> You're a little out of touch with reality. For someone new to Linux,
> installing from sources is WAY beyond what they're ready for. To advise
> folks to not learn how to use RPM's when using Redhat is just idiotic.
> That's what they're there for, and the package managers make it relatively
> foolproof for a noob to handle software. Yeah, I know that those package
> managers and rpm's in general can have problems, but in the context of a
> noob using Linux, they are invaluable.

Well if a noob wants to stay a noob so be it. When I first started using
Linux RPM didn't exist. Neither did any of this other crap you are saying
noobs NEED to have in order to learn Linux. I didn't have a hard time with
it. I think you just don't give them enough credit.

--
Sir Jackery

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:35:22 +0100, mark south wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:51:16 -0600, ray wrote:
>
>> I believe that Knoppix is still available as a Live CD as well as the DVD
>> - I would be among the first to agree that the DVD is overkill for most
>> folks.
>
> Indeed, having checked the download sites, you are right. I also noticed
> that you skipped the points where I was right :-)

What's the point in responding to points where 'you were right'? To hear
someone say 'you're right'? Much of what you iterated were personal
preferences. It is obviously true that smaller distros are smaller - that
doesn't make them 'better' - just smaller. I've tried smaller distros from
time to time, and I acknowledge that for some purposes they may be very
useful. The only one I've really clung to is Gparted.

>
> However, the small distros mentioned are still an order of magnitude
> smaller than a full 700 MB CD image. This may matter to people with slow
> connections or low patience thresholds.

Obviously. Other folks may be more interested in amenities.

>
> Among large liveCDs it has to be said that Knoppix is a pretty good start.
> I don't know why Klaus Knopper doesn't set up a proper organisation and
> knock out a few of the softer targets like ... well, better not use names
> or I'll start some flamage.
>
> Mark

IMHO - Knoppix is the gold standard - against which others are measured -
partly because it was the first to do a passable job and actually be
usable. Now, everyone and their dog is making a Live CD/DVD. Suffice it to
say, at this point, that you and I have different preferences and
different choices. About the only thing I use Live CDs for any more are
partitioning and rewriting the MBR - so I keep the Gparted Live CD around.
Anything beyond that; I'll want a pretty fully featured one - so I usually
have the latest Elive around. I have a Knoppix Live DVD because it was
included with the latest issue of Linux Magazine.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:19:16 -0600, ray wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:35:22 +0100, mark south wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:51:16 -0600, ray wrote:
>>
>>> I believe that Knoppix is still available as a Live CD as well as the
>>> DVD - I would be among the first to agree that the DVD is overkill for
>>> most folks.
>>
>> Indeed, having checked the download sites, you are right. I also
>> noticed that you skipped the points where I was right :-)
>
> What's the point in responding to points where 'you were right'? To hear
> someone say 'you're right'? Much of what you iterated were personal
> preferences.

Fridays put some people in a good mood, others the opposite. Apparently.

> It is obviously true that smaller distros are smaller - that
> doesn't make them 'better' - just smaller.

Except that for some purposes, smaller is better.

> I've tried smaller distros from
> time to time, and I acknowledge that for some purposes they may be very
> useful. The only one I've really clung to is Gparted.

So your only up to date info on small liveCDs is gparted, and on that
basis you are making definitive recommendations. Thanks for clarifying.

>> However, the small distros mentioned are still an order of magnitude
>> smaller than a full 700 MB CD image. This may matter to people with
>> slow connections or low patience thresholds.
>
> Obviously. Other folks may be more interested in amenities.

This is just argument by straw man. Amenities are not what is lacking in
the small distros. What they tend to lack is sophisticated management
tools, the kind of things that beginners don't even know how to use.
Another example is development environments and libraries. One might
wonder how many newbies to Linux who come here asking for liveCD
recommendations will try DSL and then throw the CD out of the window
because it doesn't contain Eclipse with a full set of java class libraries.

>> Among large liveCDs it has to be said that Knoppix is a pretty good
>> start. I don't know why Klaus Knopper doesn't set up a proper
>> organisation and knock out a few of the softer targets like ... well,
>> better not use names or I'll start some flamage.
>
> IMHO - Knoppix is the gold standard - against which others are measured -
> partly because it was the first to do a passable job and actually be
> usable. Now, everyone and their dog is making a Live CD/DVD.

Straw man again. There are a large number of design purposes for liveCDs,
and there are a number that fit their own purpose better than Knoppix
would. As you would know if you were au courant with the liveCD scene.

> Suffice it to
> say, at this point, that you and I have different preferences and
> different choices.

Indeed. One of us even has experience with a wide range of current
liveCDs, and the other booted Knoppix a few years ago.

> About the only thing I use Live CDs for any more are
> partitioning and rewriting the MBR - so I keep the Gparted Live CD around.
> Anything beyond that; I'll want a pretty fully featured one - so I usually
> have the latest Elive around. I have a Knoppix Live DVD because it was
> included with the latest issue of Linux Magazine.

Well, you are obviously eager to keep up to date with the latest
developments, and I don't think I dare compare knowledge with someone who
reads Linux Magazine.

So, thank you, and good night.