I run a biology lab; in the next 3-6 months, I will need to get another Mac.
I will need something which can host our website (low-traffic and low-tech,
as far as industrial website standards go), hopefully act as an independent
mail server for several accounts on it, and if possible, also be used as my
main machine in my office to do word processing and Photoshop graphics
manipulations. I can think of two ways to go: a G5, or an Xserve (which if
I'm not mistaken is a G4). Some specific questions:

1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system? I'm
trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
than a normal desktop would?

2) if I get a G5 desktop system, will it be faster or slower that a G4
Xserve, generally?

3) if I have a desktop G5, will I be able to use it as a web server, and at
the same time use it as a desktop system? That is, assuming that our website
is not super busy, ought there be any serious performance issues caused by
running a web server on it that would impact my use of it as a desktop
system?

4) conversely, if I get an Xserve, is there any reason I can't also use it
as my desktop machine?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I guess I'm not too familiar
with the Xserve, and am looking to try to understand which of these pieces
of hardware I really need. If possible, please cc: replies to
mlevin77@comcast.net. Thanks in advance!!

--

Mike Levin
mlevin77@comcast.net

In article <BC0220E2.5A20%mlevin77@comcast.net>,
Michael Levin <mlevin77@comcast.net> wrote:

> I run a biology lab; in the next 3-6 months, I will need to get another Mac.
> I will need something which can host our website (low-traffic and low-tech,
> as far as industrial website standards go), hopefully act as an independent
> mail server for several accounts on it, and if possible, also be used as my
> main machine in my office to do word processing and Photoshop graphics
> manipulations. I can think of two ways to go: a G5, or an Xserve (which if
> I'm not mistaken is a G4). Some specific questions:
>
> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system? I'm
> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
> than a normal desktop would?

Handle substantial amounts of network traffic.

> 2) if I get a G5 desktop system, will it be faster or slower that a G4
> Xserve, generally?

Faster.

> 3) if I have a desktop G5, will I be able to use it as a web server, and at
> the same time use it as a desktop system? That is, assuming that our website
> is not super busy, ought there be any serious performance issues caused by
> running a web server on it that would impact my use of it as a desktop
> system?

Nah. Even a desktop G4 can handle a low load without noticeable impact.
My wife uses her machine that way.

> 4) conversely, if I get an Xserve, is there any reason I can't also use it
> as my desktop machine?

Airflow (bad for the machine) and noise (really bad for you).

G

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:15:00 GMT,
Michael Levin (mlevin77@comcast.net) wrote:
> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system? I'm
> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
> than a normal desktop would?

It comes with OS X server. You would have to buy that for the desktop,
if you wanted to. With OS X server you can setup things like network
booting for the other Macs in your lab, etc. The Xserve is also much
more expandable than the G5 is with 4 internal drive bays.

> 2) if I get a G5 desktop system, will it be faster or slower that a G4
> Xserve, generally?

Faster (but don't get the 1.6 Ghz G5 - my guess is that a dual - processor
Xserve will be faster).

> 3) if I have a desktop G5, will I be able to use it as a web server, and at
> the same time use it as a desktop system? That is, assuming that our website
> is not super busy, ought there be any serious performance issues caused by
> running a web server on it that would impact my use of it as a desktop
> system?

I wouldn't do this. I don't know what you expect the traffic on your website
to be, but it might grow with time. Ours did. We have downloads/analysis of
several megabases worth of DNA sequences every hour. I don't know if that's
the kind of processing you intend to do on your server, but if you do, I
would advise you to get an independent machine for it. Fast PCs are cheap,
and FreeBSD, OpenBSD and Linux are free .....

> 4) conversely, if I get an Xserve, is there any reason I can't also use it
> as my desktop machine?

They are _really_ noisy. These things are meant to be rack-mounted, not
sit on someone's desk.
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer

On 12/14/03 5:13 PM, in article slrnbtprn7.tci.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:15:00 GMT,
> Michael Levin (mlevin77@comcast.net) wrote:
>> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system? I'm
>> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
>> than a normal desktop would?
>
> It comes with OS X server. You would have to buy that for the desktop,
> if you wanted to. With OS X server you can setup things like network
> booting for the other Macs in your lab, etc. The Xserve is also much
> more expandable than the G5 is with 4 internal drive bays.
>
OS X Server is an option on the G5.
--

Brian Ehni

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:09:11 -0600,
Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
> On 12/14/03 5:13 PM, in article slrnbtprn7.tci.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:15:00 GMT,
>> Michael Levin (mlevin77@comcast.net) wrote:
>>> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system? I'm
>>> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
>>> than a normal desktop would?
>>
>> It comes with OS X server. You would have to buy that for the desktop,
>> if you wanted to. With OS X server you can setup things like network
>> booting for the other Macs in your lab, etc. The Xserve is also much
>> more expandable than the G5 is with 4 internal drive bays.
>>
> OS X Server is an option on the G5.

It's an option that you pay _extra_ for -- as I said, you would have to
buy that for the desktop if you wanted to. You can also buy OS X server
for a G4 desktop (preinstalled), but you have to pay extra. OS X server
is _included_ in the price of the Xserve.
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer

On 12/14/03 6:19 PM, in article slrnbtpvjf.tli.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:09:11 -0600,
> Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
>> On 12/14/03 5:13 PM, in article slrnbtprn7.tci.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
>> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:15:00 GMT,
>>> Michael Levin (mlevin77@comcast.net) wrote:
>>>> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system? I'm
>>>> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
>>>> than a normal desktop would?
>>>
>>> It comes with OS X server. You would have to buy that for the desktop,
>>> if you wanted to. With OS X server you can setup things like network
>>> booting for the other Macs in your lab, etc. The Xserve is also much
>>> more expandable than the G5 is with 4 internal drive bays.
>>>
>> OS X Server is an option on the G5.
>
> It's an option that you pay _extra_ for -- as I said, you would have to
> buy that for the desktop if you wanted to. You can also buy OS X server
> for a G4 desktop (preinstalled), but you have to pay extra. OS X server
> is _included_ in the price of the Xserve.


And you pay for it there as well.
--

Brian Ehni

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:51:12 -0600,
Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
> On 12/14/03 6:19 PM, in article slrnbtpvjf.tli.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:09:11 -0600,
>> Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
>>> On 12/14/03 5:13 PM, in article slrnbtprn7.tci.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
>>> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:15:00 GMT,
>>>> Michael Levin (mlevin77@comcast.net) wrote:
>>>>> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system? I'm
>>>>> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
>>>>> than a normal desktop would?
>>>>
>>>> It comes with OS X server. You would have to buy that for the desktop,
>>>> if you wanted to. With OS X server you can setup things like network
>>>> booting for the other Macs in your lab, etc. The Xserve is also much
>>>> more expandable than the G5 is with 4 internal drive bays.
>>>>
>>> OS X Server is an option on the G5.
>>
>> It's an option that you pay _extra_ for -- as I said, you would have to
>> buy that for the desktop if you wanted to. You can also buy OS X server
>> for a G4 desktop (preinstalled), but you have to pay extra. OS X server
>> is _included_ in the price of the Xserve.
>
>
> And you pay for it there as well.

Are you smoking crack? You don't have a choice of purchasing an Xserve
without an operating system. The only OS it is offered with is OS X server.
You can't tell Apple - leave out the OS, and cut the price by $400 or
whatever....

Just as the G4 & G5 desktops come with OS X that you cannot opt out of. But
you do have the choice of not spending an additional $400 and getting OS X
server with them.
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer

Thanks everyone for the info - this is exactly what I needed. The consensus
seems to be that the G5 is faster, can handle a small website, and much more
suited to be a desktop machine (but less expandable and less fit for high
traffic). That makes my choice easy; I'll go with a G5. The only remaining
question: is there any way to move a customized OS X (preferences set, etc.)
from a G4 to a G5, or will I have to set up all the stuff by hand again?
Will something like CCC (carbon copy cloner) work to boot a G5 machine off
an OS X disk made on a G4?

--

Mike Levin
mlevin77@comcast.net

On 12/14/03 9:00 PM, in article slrnbtq923.tu5.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:51:12 -0600,
> Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
>> On 12/14/03 6:19 PM, in article slrnbtpvjf.tli.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
>> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:09:11 -0600,
>>> Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
>>>> On 12/14/03 5:13 PM, in article slrnbtprn7.tci.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
>>>> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:15:00 GMT,
>>>>> Michael Levin (mlevin77@comcast.net) wrote:
>>>>>> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system?
>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
>>>>>> than a normal desktop would?
>>>>>
>>>>> It comes with OS X server. You would have to buy that for the desktop,
>>>>> if you wanted to. With OS X server you can setup things like network
>>>>> booting for the other Macs in your lab, etc. The Xserve is also much
>>>>> more expandable than the G5 is with 4 internal drive bays.
>>>>>
>>>> OS X Server is an option on the G5.
>>>
>>> It's an option that you pay _extra_ for -- as I said, you would have to
>>> buy that for the desktop if you wanted to. You can also buy OS X server
>>> for a G4 desktop (preinstalled), but you have to pay extra. OS X server
>>> is _included_ in the price of the Xserve.
>>
>>
>> And you pay for it there as well.
>
> Are you smoking crack? You don't have a choice of purchasing an Xserve
> without an operating system. The only OS it is offered with is OS X server.
> You can't tell Apple - leave out the OS, and cut the price by $400 or
> whatever....
>
> Just as the G4 & G5 desktops come with OS X that you cannot opt out of. But
> you do have the choice of not spending an additional $400 and getting OS X
> server with them.

You think the OS is free? Have you looked at the price for a retail box of
10.3 lately?

I await your apology.
--

Brian Ehni

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:46:42 -0600,
Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
> On 12/14/03 9:00 PM, in article slrnbtq923.tu5.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:51:12 -0600,
>> Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
>>> On 12/14/03 6:19 PM, in article slrnbtpvjf.tli.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
>>> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:09:11 -0600,
>>>> Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
>>>>> On 12/14/03 5:13 PM, in article slrnbtprn7.tci.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
>>>>> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:15:00 GMT,
>>>>>> Michael Levin (mlevin77@comcast.net) wrote:
>>>>>>> 1) what are the main advantages of Xserve over a normal desktop system?
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> trying to gauge whether I need the Xserve at all. What does it do better
>>>>>>> than a normal desktop would?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It comes with OS X server. You would have to buy that for the desktop,
>>>>>> if you wanted to. With OS X server you can setup things like network
>>>>>> booting for the other Macs in your lab, etc. The Xserve is also much
>>>>>> more expandable than the G5 is with 4 internal drive bays.
>>>>>>
>>>>> OS X Server is an option on the G5.
>>>>
>>>> It's an option that you pay _extra_ for -- as I said, you would have to
>>>> buy that for the desktop if you wanted to. You can also buy OS X server
>>>> for a G4 desktop (preinstalled), but you have to pay extra. OS X server
>>>> is _included_ in the price of the Xserve.
>>>
>>>
>>> And you pay for it there as well.
>>
>> Are you smoking crack? You don't have a choice of purchasing an Xserve
>> without an operating system. The only OS it is offered with is OS X server.
>> You can't tell Apple - leave out the OS, and cut the price by $400 or
>> whatever....
>>
>> Just as the G4 & G5 desktops come with OS X that you cannot opt out of. But
>> you do have the choice of not spending an additional $400 and getting OS X
>> server with them.
>
> You think the OS is free? Have you looked at the price for a retail box of
> 10.3 lately?

The price of the OS is built-into the price of the hardware. The point
(which you seem to be incapable of comprehending) is that if you want
OS X server with a desktop Mac you have to pay an _additional_ $400+.
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer

On 12/14/03 10:18 PM, in article slrnbtqdjf.u35.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:


And what you fail to grasp is that the cost of the server software is also
built into the X Serve price, it's just not called out as a separate price.
--

Brian Ehni

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:44:39 -0600,
Brian Paul Ehni (behni@comcast.net) wrote:
> On 12/14/03 10:18 PM, in article slrnbtqdjf.u35.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
> Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:
>
>
> And what you fail to grasp is that the cost of the server software is also
> built into the X Serve price, it's just not called out as a separate price.

Prove it.
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer

> > And what you fail to grasp is that the cost of the server software is also
> > built into the X Serve price, it's just not called out as a separate price.
>
> Prove it.

The X-Serve hardware ships with Unlimited-Client server OS, and it's
builtin to the price. It used to be that people who wanted an X-Serve
with only the 10-Client licence could negotiate ~$400 reduction,
and it used to be that the X-Serve hardware was available to the
..edu market, Nth America only :-( with no OS, no licence,
& ~$900 off list price.

Things may have changed...

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:44:46 +1300,
Peter KERR (user@host.domain) wrote:
>
>> > And what you fail to grasp is that the cost of the server software is also
>> > built into the X Serve price, it's just not called out as a separate price.
>>
>> Prove it.
>
> The X-Serve hardware ships with Unlimited-Client server OS, and it's
> builtin to the price. It used to be that people who wanted an X-Serve
> with only the 10-Client licence could negotiate ~$400 reduction,
> and it used to be that the X-Serve hardware was available to the
> .edu market, Nth America only :-( with no OS, no licence,
> & ~$900 off list price.
>
> Things may have changed...

No longer the case. I'm in the .edu market, and cannot get an X-serve
without the OS, and now apparently only with the unlimited client version.
So much do you want to assign for the OS, how much for the hardware?

--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer

On 12/15/03 7:39 PM, in article slrnbtsolq.21g.bevakupf@myhome.net, "Bev A.
Kupf" <bevakupf@myhome.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:44:46 +1300,
> Peter KERR (user@host.domain) wrote:
>>
>>>> And what you fail to grasp is that the cost of the server software is also
>>>> built into the X Serve price, it's just not called out as a separate price.
>>>
>>> Prove it.
>>
>> The X-Serve hardware ships with Unlimited-Client server OS, and it's
>> builtin to the price. It used to be that people who wanted an X-Serve
>> with only the 10-Client licence could negotiate ~$400 reduction,
>> and it used to be that the X-Serve hardware was available to the
>> .edu market, Nth America only :-( with no OS, no licence,
>> & ~$900 off list price.
>>
>> Things may have changed...
>
> No longer the case. I'm in the .edu market, and cannot get an X-serve
> without the OS, and now apparently only with the unlimited client version.
> So much do you want to assign for the OS, how much for the hardware?

You'd have to get an answer for that from Apple. They obviously have a price
in mind, charging circa $1000 retail for the unlimited client version of OS
X Server.
--

Brian Ehni