You're definitely correct in some regard, Josh. For non-client scrollbars,
an app *probably* wouldn't need to be recompiled to get left scrollbars (I
can outline cases where it would be needed, but I'm agreeing with you that
it's typically handled entirely by the OS). However, that's only about 40%
of the cases of where scrollbars appear. Office, many MFC and .NET apps,
among many others, explicitly lay out their scrollbars via a client
scrollbar control. IE doesn't even use real scrollbars; to get HTML
stylesheet functionality and advanced layout they implemented their own.
This is absolutely an unsolvable problem without involving ISVs, well,
unsolvable in a practical sense. That said, I heard that work is being done
in Longhorn to introduce a system setting ISVs can use along with automagic
non-client scrollbar switching.
"Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
news:eEU%23RpXVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Thanks for insulting me. :)
>
> I'm young, but I am not by any means new to software development. My
> argument was not that changes to the API would require recompilation to
take
> advantage of the features. I know what version changes are like.
>
> However, when you create a multiline textbox, or (an even simpler example)
> when you create an HTML application or web page that uses IE as the
> container, you simply request the presence of a scroll bar. You are not
> responsible for creating that scroll bar nor does your application need to
> know anything about the location of the scroll bar. That's the operating
> system's job of drawing.
>
> Someone mentioned PointToClient and ClientToScreen needing to be changed.
Of
> course they'd need to be changed, but that's part of the OS implementing
it.
> My argument was not that it wouldn't require changes to several API's,
> rather that these changes should be able to be transparent to existing
> applications. That's the whole reason PointToClient and ClientToScreen
were
> created, because you aren't supposed to know what's outside of your client
> area or how your client area relates to the screen -- that's the OS's job.
>
> So let me play devil's advocate here. Let's say I am wrong about the Win32
> API (not saying I am or am not wrong, just have not yet heard anything
that
> makes me think it's not possible to do transparently). Why can't Internet
> Explorer easily have a left hand scroll bar option? Web pages are not
> dependent on the scroll bar being on the right.
>
> Granted, you won't be able to catch custom scroll bar implementations
> (flash, java, etc) but your OS-supplied scroll bars (such as on listboxes,
> multiline text boxes) and your browser-supplied scroll bars (scrollable
> DIV's, BODY, frames, etc) should be able to be relocated with minimal
> application changes.
>
> I can see I'm outnumbered here so I'll stop wasting space on Microsoft's
> servers. I just still don't see what requires a recompilation.
>
> --
> Josh Einstein
> Einstein Technologies
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
$19.99!
> http://www.einsteinware.com
>
> "Smartikat" <wonga@_SMARTIKAT_MossMotors.com> wrote in message
> news:uEHi%23LWVEHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > Josh,
> >
> > You must be a Young programmer (No offense intended). I remember to
good
> > old days that everything's possible, including writing an OS from
scratch
> > :-) But understand that, although it is technically possible,
sometimes,
> > it is not financially possible or feasible.
> >
> > The scrollbar, which like the "Button" is part of the OS. Any change to
> > it will require a change in the API. In this case, MS will have to add
a
> > new Property to the scrollbar class to state it's location (left or
> > right). There are a few problems come to mind already:
> > 1) A change like this, will require a new system DLL be distributed to
> > all users. i.e. Can only be done with new OS or Service pack. There
was
> > just an article out there saying it is going to cost quite a bit of
money
> > to distribute XP SP2 (not the development cost!)
> > 2) If it is distributed as a Service Pack, you risk user who didn't
> > upgrade...
> > 3) Since it is a change in the Scrollbar class, the length/size of the
> > class is different from the previous version. i.e. Almost all existing
> > Apps compiled against the old system DLL will have to RECOMPILED. The
> > class entry points, function entry points are all different now. i.e.
No
> > old Apps can easily run on the new system patched with the new DLL
(again,
> > it is possible for MS to do some magic tricks to address this, but not
> > easy).
> > 4) Now, think about No 2 again... Supposed all vendors recompiled
their
> > apps, but all of a sudden, a user tries to run apps under old DLL. You
> > face the same problem of this app might try to look for the DLL entry
> > point at the wrong place.
> >
> > To summarize, "Welcome to DLL Hell" :-)
> >
> >
> > "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> > news:uRaIL6NVEHA.2320@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >>I hear what you're saying but you've not said why existing apps would
> >>break.
> >>
> >> I think I need to talk to a developer about it to understand what the
big
> >> problem is.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Josh Einstein
> >> Einstein Technologies
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> >> $19.99!
> >> http://www.einsteinware.com
> >>
> >> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> >> news:eOz1SqNVEHA.716@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> >>> Read Mike Williams post, Josh. Believe me, we've gone over this many
> >>> years ago, and until we have an operating system built from the ground
> >>> up - one that doesn't depend on legacy items - we're stuck with what
> >>> we've got. I've got a lefty daughter, and she copes just fine. It
> >>> could be easier for her, but with the discussions I've been part of
over
> >>> the years it isn't economically feasible with the current OS.
> >>> --
> >>> Chris H.
> >>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> >>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> >>> Associate Expert
> >>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:utvIxYNVEHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> >>>> Okay that's respectable. But then I won't admit I am wrong. :) I will
> >>>> try to get a technical explanation of this issue from the MS guys
then,
> >>>> because as a windows developer, I see no reason why this is not
> >>>> possible. Scrollbars are nonclient areas which means the OS is
> >>>> responsible for creating them. Just as apps aren't affected by XP
> >>>> skinning them, so should they not be affected by orientation change.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Josh Einstein
> >>>> Einstein Technologies
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> >>>> $19.99!
> >>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
> >>>>
> >>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:eW5ApQNVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> >>>>> Josh, I won't debate with you what Microsoft developers have said.
> >>>>> Certain programs can do certain things, like I pointed out with
> >>>>> OneNote currently (SP1 form), but the entire operating system is
> >>>>> another issue.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Chris H.
> >>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> >>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> >>>>> Associate Expert
> >>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:e3XeWFNVEHA.264@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >>>>>> That's not true. Things like multiline text boxes and html pages
have
> >>>>>> scrollbars by default. Developers don't do anything special to
create
> >>>>>> them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If the operating system simply rendered them on the left, the
> >>>>>> developer wouldn't have to do anything differently. If you can give
> >>>>>> me an example of something that would break, I will admit I'm
wrong.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Take a look at the IE menu I described. If they can draw a
scrollbar
> >>>>>> on the left when I click a menu, then why not always?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Josh Einstein
> >>>>>> Einstein Technologies
> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
> >>>>>> $19.99!
> >>>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>> news:u97nRpMVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> >>>>>>> Josh, as Terri has said, and I tried to impart in my response,
> >>>>>>> Microsoft has dealt with this issue for years. Bill Gates is
> >>>>>>> left-handed. An example is Microsoft can set this up for $50,000
> >>>>>>> investment for research, development and adjustments on its
current
> >>>>>>> programs and operating systems.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The other software companies around the world would need to spend
> >>>>>>> millions or billions of dollars to revamp/rewrite their software
to
> >>>>>>> comply.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Guess what the prudent approach is Microsoft has chosen to take
> >>>>>>> until the Longhorn timeframe?
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Chris H.
> >>>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> >>>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> >>>>>>> Associate Expert
> >>>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>> news:%23IZK4$LVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> >>>>>>>> In Internet Explorer, click the View Menu -> Encoding -> Right to
> >>>>>>>> Left Document.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It messes up the way some things look unfortunately, and it has
to
> >>>>>>>> be set for each page. Web designers can apply this to individual
> >>>>>>>> DIV's too which Spencer Goad has done on his web site
> >>>>>>>> (www.tabletpcbuzz.com) so if you wanna check that out, go into
the
> >>>>>>>> profile after you've become a member and change your handedness
to
> >>>>>>>> left handed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So the ability is technically there. It's just a matter of
changing
> >>>>>>>> the base controls. I can't forsee any major impact this would
have
> >>>>>>>> on existing applications so if it's a very necessary feature, MS
> >>>>>>>> should be able to easily implement it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Josh Einstein
> >>>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>