Exactly. A few of us have been down certain roads before. 8-)
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone


"Sahil Malik" <contactmethrumyblog@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eVl3dObVEHA.2828@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Josh,
>
> The people on these newsgroups are probably the best you will ever find.
> As
> long as your discussion is even remotely connected to what is pertinent,
> it
> is not wasting anyone's time, and nobody's insulting anyone. That is the
> good thing about these newsgroups - High Quality, Low Ego ..
>
> Right Chris? :)
>
> - SM
>
>
> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
> news:uTw4TwXVEHA.3540@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> Josh, it isn't that you're wasting anyone's time. It is time well spent
> to
>> learn. However, believe me as I and others have attempted to inform you,
>> Microsoft looked into these possibilities years ago and spent a whole lot
> of
>> development dollars in doing so.
>>
>> What you're saying certainly can be done, and has been done in the labs.
>> However, the affect and requirements on all the other software companies
> in
>> the world is too costly to implement.
>>
>> Look for changes in the Longhorn operating system. That's when the
> "basics"
>> will probably be put in place, since the OS is being built from the
>> ground
>> up unfettered by the Win9x and NT legacy.
>> --
>> Chris H.
>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>> Associate Expert
>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>
>>
>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> news:eEU%23RpXVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> > Thanks for insulting me. :)
>> >
>> > I'm young, but I am not by any means new to software development. My
>> > argument was not that changes to the API would require recompilation to
>> > take advantage of the features. I know what version changes are like.
>> >
>> > However, when you create a multiline textbox, or (an even simpler
> example)
>> > when you create an HTML application or web page that uses IE as the
>> > container, you simply request the presence of a scroll bar. You are not
>> > responsible for creating that scroll bar nor does your application need
> to
>> > know anything about the location of the scroll bar. That's the
>> > operating
>> > system's job of drawing.
>> >
>> > Someone mentioned PointToClient and ClientToScreen needing to be
> changed.
>> > Of course they'd need to be changed, but that's part of the OS
>> > implementing it. My argument was not that it wouldn't require changes
>> > to
>> > several API's, rather that these changes should be able to be
> transparent
>> > to existing applications. That's the whole reason PointToClient and
>> > ClientToScreen were created, because you aren't supposed to know what's
>> > outside of your client area or how your client area relates to the
>> > screen -- that's the OS's job.
>> >
>> > So let me play devil's advocate here. Let's say I am wrong about the
> Win32
>> > API (not saying I am or am not wrong, just have not yet heard anything
>> > that makes me think it's not possible to do transparently). Why can't
>> > Internet Explorer easily have a left hand scroll bar option? Web pages
> are
>> > not dependent on the scroll bar being on the right.
>> >
>> > Granted, you won't be able to catch custom scroll bar implementations
>> > (flash, java, etc) but your OS-supplied scroll bars (such as on
> listboxes,
>> > multiline text boxes) and your browser-supplied scroll bars (scrollable
>> > DIV's, BODY, frames, etc) should be able to be relocated with minimal
>> > application changes.
>> >
>> > I can see I'm outnumbered here so I'll stop wasting space on
>> > Microsoft's
>> > servers. I just still don't see what requires a recompilation.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Josh Einstein
>> > Einstein Technologies
>> > --------------------------------------------------------
>> > Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>> > $19.99!
>> > http://www.einsteinware.com
>> >
>> > "Smartikat" <wonga@_SMARTIKAT_MossMotors.com> wrote in message
>> > news:uEHi%23LWVEHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>> >> Josh,
>> >>
>> >> You must be a Young programmer (No offense intended). I remember to
> good
>> >> old days that everything's possible, including writing an OS from
>> >> scrat
> ch
>> >> :-) But understand that, although it is technically possible,
> sometimes,
>> >> it is not financially possible or feasible.
>> >>
>> >> The scrollbar, which like the "Button" is part of the OS. Any change
> to
>> >> it will require a change in the API. In this case, MS will have to
>> >> add
> a
>> >> new Property to the scrollbar class to state it's location (left or
>> >> right). There are a few problems come to mind already:
>> >> 1) A change like this, will require a new system DLL be distributed
>> >> to
>> >> all users. i.e. Can only be done with new OS or Service pack. There
>> >> was just an article out there saying it is going to cost quite a bit
>> >> of
>> >> money to distribute XP SP2 (not the development cost!)
>> >> 2) If it is distributed as a Service Pack, you risk user who didn't
>> >> upgrade...
>> >> 3) Since it is a change in the Scrollbar class, the length/size of
>> >> the
>> >> class is different from the previous version. i.e. Almost all
> existing
>> >> Apps compiled against the old system DLL will have to RECOMPILED. The
>> >> class entry points, function entry points are all different now. i.e.
>> >> No old Apps can easily run on the new system patched with the new DLL
>> >> (again, it is possible for MS to do some magic tricks to address this,
>> >> but not easy).
>> >> 4) Now, think about No 2 again... Supposed all vendors recompiled
> their
>> >> apps, but all of a sudden, a user tries to run apps under old DLL.
>> >> You
>> >> face the same problem of this app might try to look for the DLL entry
>> >> point at the wrong place.
>> >>
>> >> To summarize, "Welcome to DLL Hell" :-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:uRaIL6NVEHA.2320@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> >>>I hear what you're saying but you've not said why existing apps would
>> >>>break.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think I need to talk to a developer about it to understand what the
>> >>> big problem is.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Josh Einstein
>> >>> Einstein Technologies
>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>> >>> $19.99!
>> >>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>> >>>
>> >>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>> >>> news:eOz1SqNVEHA.716@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> >>>> Read Mike Williams post, Josh. Believe me, we've gone over this
>> >>>> many
>> >>>> years ago, and until we have an operating system built from the
> ground
>> >>>> up - one that doesn't depend on legacy items - we're stuck with what
>> >>>> we've got. I've got a lefty daughter, and she copes just fine. It
>> >>>> could be easier for her, but with the discussions I've been part of
>> >>>> over the years it isn't economically feasible with the current OS.
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Chris H.
>> >>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>> >>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>> >>>> Associate Expert
>> >>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:utvIxYNVEHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> >>>>> Okay that's respectable. But then I won't admit I am wrong. :) I
> will
>> >>>>> try to get a technical explanation of this issue from the MS guys
>> >>>>> then, because as a windows developer, I see no reason why this is
> not
>> >>>>> possible. Scrollbars are nonclient areas which means the OS is
>> >>>>> responsible for creating them. Just as apps aren't affected by XP
>> >>>>> skinning them, so should they not be affected by orientation
>> >>>>> change.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Josh Einstein
>> >>>>> Einstein Technologies
>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook! Only
>> >>>>> $19.99!
>> >>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>> >>>>> news:eW5ApQNVEHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> >>>>>> Josh, I won't debate with you what Microsoft developers have said.
>> >>>>>> Certain programs can do certain things, like I pointed out with
>> >>>>>> OneNote currently (SP1 form), but the entire operating system is
>> >>>>>> another issue.
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Chris H.
>> >>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>> >>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>> >>>>>> Associate Expert
>> >>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> >>>>>> news:e3XeWFNVEHA.264@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> >>>>>>> That's not true. Things like multiline text boxes and html pages
>> >>>>>>> have scrollbars by default. Developers don't do anything special
> to
>> >>>>>>> create them.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If the operating system simply rendered them on the left, the
>> >>>>>>> developer wouldn't have to do anything differently. If you can
> give
>> >>>>>>> me an example of something that would break, I will admit I'm
> wrong.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Take a look at the IE menu I described. If they can draw a
> scrollbar
>> >>>>>>> on the left when I click a menu, then why not always?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> Josh Einstein
>> >>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>> Add ink input to Outlook with Tablet Enhancements for Outlook!
> Only
>> >>>>>>> $19.99!
>> >>>>>>> http://www.einsteinware.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> "Chris H." <winxpnews********.com> wrote in message
>> >>>>>>> news:u97nRpMVEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> >>>>>>>> Josh, as Terri has said, and I tried to impart in my response,
>> >>>>>>>> Microsoft has dealt with this issue for years. Bill Gates is
>> >>>>>>>> left-handed. An example is Microsoft can set this up for
>> >>>>>>>> $50,000
>> >>>>>>>> investment for research, development and adjustments on its
> current
>> >>>>>>>> programs and operating systems.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> The other software companies around the world would need to
>> >>>>>>>> spend
>> >>>>>>>> millions or billions of dollars to revamp/rewrite their software
> to
>> >>>>>>>> comply.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Guess what the prudent approach is Microsoft has chosen to take
>> >>>>>>>> until the Longhorn timeframe?
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Chris H.
>> >>>>>>>> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
>> >>>>>>>> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
>> >>>>>>>> Associate Expert
>> >>>>>>>> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "Josh Einstein" <josheinstein********.com> wrote in message
>> >>>>>>>> news:%23IZK4$LVEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>> >>>>>>>>> In Internet Explorer, click the View Menu -> Encoding -> Right
> to
>> >>>>>>>>> Left Document.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> It messes up the way some things look unfortunately, and it has
> to
>> >>>>>>>>> be set for each page. Web designers can apply this to
>> >>>>>>>>> individual
>> >>>>>>>>> DIV's too which Spencer Goad has done on his web site
>> >>>>>>>>> (www.tabletpcbuzz.com) so if you wanna check that out, go into
> the
>> >>>>>>>>> profile after you've become a member and change your handedness
> to
>> >>>>>>>>> left handed.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> So the ability is technically there. It's just a matter of
>> >>>>>>>>> changing the base controls. I can't forsee any major impact
>> >>>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>>> would have on existing applications so if it's a very necessary
>> >>>>>>>>> feature, MS should be able to easily implement it.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Josh Einstein
>> >>>>>>>>> Einstein Technologies
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>