Couldn't agree more on the media issue. When I bought my last PC from Dell,
one week it was X99.00 WITH the XP CD. The next week it was X89.00 WITHOUT
the XP CD but I could buy one for $10. Heh, heh, heh... needless to say, I
laid out the cash for the CD.

Good lord, who in their right mind would want to use the OEM's restore
partition? Not I. Hmm... I guess I'm not trying to say I'M in my right mind,
but I spend enough time clearing off the crap added on by the OEM that if I
have to go back to bare metal, I'd choose the clean OS install over the
OEM's restore partition any day.

That's why I'm psyched about Complete PC Backup Restore... do a clean OS
install, install my apps, copy over my data, snap a Complete PC Backup to an
external USB drive and I'm ready to go. Except... what? I don't have the
Vista DVD to boot from so... I can't restore my image? To quote Bill the
Cat; Phhllbbbttttttttt!

If they're not going to include a DVD, they, at the very least, need to
include an iso of the Vista DVD so one can burn one's own DVD.

I mean... does it come down to the OEM wanting to force one to use their
restore partition so one is forced to install all of the crap they drop on
one's box, not all MS stuff either, so the OEM is meeting some agreement
with those companies whose crap is part of the OEM image? I mean...
really... WordPerfect? Haw, haw, haw. (Sorry if you use it... I don't...)
Corel Photo Gallery "2 minute" trial software? Puleeeease... some crappy
burning software, AV trial software, gawd... I hate that stuff.

My problem is... when I get a new PC, I don't want to take the time to
configure it right, i.e., clean OS install, install apps, etc... I have to
drool all over it for a couple of days and by then I've invested too much
time to go bare metal. I swear, the next PC I buy will go bare metal first
thing. And Complete PC Backup will make that job easier, methinks. But,
dang... I need that effin' Vista DVD dude!

Lang

"Chad Harris" <Vista RTM is really Beta 1.net> wrote in message
news:OV8IKRTDHHA.3600@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> The MFST newsgroups for Betas usually have the most traffic at the
> beginning and until near the end of the Beta and the most traffic are
> always the ones connected with the OS but I'm sure the all have
> significant importantce as learning mechanisms and to drive the Beta
> testing.
>
> I have thought all your posts very sincere and very thoughtful and pretty
> detailed.
>
> You also seem to have a good perspective on what the software should do
> from work as well as your time at home.
>
> Keep up the very good work--I always look forward to your posts.
>
> My recovery jag and pushing for an OS CD/DVD from OEMs lately has been
> simplyin the vein that I think that for their hard earned money for hdw
> people should have the expectation that MSFT and the companies who benefit
> from a huge surge in sales at the time when the OS, Office, and it's
> pretty powerful 26 associated apps and servers for "Office Systems 2007"
> and Longhorn server owe it to this big population of public users in the
> millions to provide a recovery system with extremely high efficacy. It's
> just in anyone's dreams that what OEMs are shipping that is non-OS works
> at all.
>
> I'm shocked that someone with as much experience and sophistication as
> Mike Brannigan believes they do.
>
> CH
>
>
> "Lang Murphy" <lang_murphy********.com> wrote in message
> news:03B15616-EEB9-40AE-84DF-D04206EE8FB6@microsoft.com...[color=green]
>> Chad,
>>
>> As always, you take the time to make your points and they stick to the
>> wall, imho. I think it's so unfortunate that some folks in here
>> misconstrue your intent. Unfortunate for them, that is. I think that your
>> intent is to do the best job you can beta testing... and I, for one, find
>> no fault with that, period.
>>
>> I came into the beta late... I did what I could to report the bugs I
>> found. Six is not an awful lot, I'll admit, but what I found I reported.
>> Using the tools I was asked to use. And, like yourself, I had no
>> expectation of getting anything free out of it.
>>
>> I understand your frustration at having worked so hard at getting it,
>> Vista, right, and feeling that it's not. You did your job... stand tall.
>>
>> I have not participated in any SP betas yet. I know our group didn't do
>> any beta testing for XP SP2. Should have, no doubt, but it didn't happen,
>> for whatever reason.
>>
>> I haven't checked the MSDN and TechNet blogs... one thing I found odd was
>> that I just signed up for the Connect NG's and there's like absolutely no
>> traffic in there... most NG's have a single msg welcoming folks to that
>> NG and many have like 3 msg since 05. Weird.
>>
>> But you know... I don't think the job of testing Vista is done just
>> because they've declared RTM regardless of what anyone says about it
>> being ready or not. I think, maybe, now is the time to pound on it harder
>> than ever and scream bloody murder for fixes. That's my plan. For good
>> or ill. Free or no free.
>>
>> Lang
>>
>>
>> "Chad Harris" <Vista RTM is really Beta 1.net> wrote in message
>> news:OH%23OX2%23CHHA.3228@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>>>I agree--
>>>
>>> My comments on this thread had little if anything to do with "getting
>>> free software from MSFT--that's not even in the equation when a lot of
>>> us Beta test. It's so not a factor.
>>>
>>> Most of us who were avid to get hold of the Beta back in July '05 wanted
>>> to see what was there, how we could fix it, hopefully how we could
>>> improve it--along the lines that Robert Firth and you wrote about, and
>>> have written about well. I have few items I know I got them to
>>> fix/change because I have the direct feedback from the particular teams
>>> and was able to see change from build to build I feel very good about in
>>> that one of them is going to make some hardware and printers usuable
>>> with drivers that would have vexed and made a number of people buy new
>>> peripherals that they won't need to buy at all during the reign of
>>> Vista.
>>>
>>>
>>> You and xfile made comments about testing the Beta whether you're a
>>> TBT or not to see how the next OS will work for your needs and I'm in
>>> agreement. Sure a lot of us made great bug reports with every criteria
>>> they asked for in those videos and beyond, well screenshooted and
>>> communicated with them even outside the context of the bug reports, and
>>> they just didn't get around to executing what would have been
>>> objectively necessary fixes at times. That they could have and didn't
>>> does bother me a great deal.
>>>
>>> I don't know how you perceive this Lang but if you take every version of
>>> Windows since the start, when there have been major functionality
>>> problems, it has been rare for an MSKB or an SP rollup to fix them. They
>>> are for the most part security vulnerability fixes and you and I both
>>> looked closely at what happened as XP SP2 rolled out. A lof of us who
>>> are interested participate in Betas for the SPs as well when they
>>> happen.
>>>
>>> I remember the one for XP SP2.
>>>
>>> In addition to making the OS better, and trying it to see how it
>>> evolved, I didn't want to have to address so many **** issues for the
>>> next five years until Blackcomb/Vienna/Figi whatevah starts its Alpha
>>> and Beta. And now sadly I am.
>>>
>>> Maybe since Jim Allchin has picked up the blogging bug, Jim will push
>>> some fixes even away from MSFT since he's still going to be immersed in
>>> watching and hacking his own Windows.
>>>
>>> This is the first OS I notice that RTMs in the midst of an active,
>>> vibrant MSDN and Technet "blogosphere" to use a Redmonesque word, so
>>> that I see as a real plus. That offers an additional parallel strong
>>> ancillary line of communication and support on in depth Vista and LH
>>> server issues
>>>
>>> CH
>>>
>>> "Lang Murphy" <lang_murphy********.com> wrote in message
>>> news:A7D7DB75-E930-44A5-B159-499D988FD845@microsoft.com...
>>>> CH,
>>>>
>>>> And... might one not consider that the MSDN and Tech guys paid pretty
>>>> serious money to be in those programs? CPP was totally free. I sure
>>>> didn't stick a 12 gauge, or any other gauge gun, in anyone's cakehole
>>>> to get them to try Vista for free. So now all the malcontents that've
>>>> been bitching about Vista want a free copy. Hahahaha.
>>>>
>>>> I mean... I'm sure there are CPP guys and gals who deserve a free copy.
>>>> Maybe MS should create a different set of requirements for those folks
>>>> to get a free copy. And not publish it to the world. Although I'm sure
>>>> if they did that, change the requirements, the requirements would get
>>>> out and those that just missed them would be most put out. I don't
>>>> know... just rambling at this point.... but I am sure there are CPP
>>>> folks who probably deserve a free copy. Doubt that Ballmer would agree
>>>> with that, though...
>>>>
>>>> I got the RTM code and installed it on 3 work PC's. I'd love to get a
>>>> free copy, as a TBT, to upgrade my personal PC. Time'll tell...
>>>>
>>>> Lang
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Chad Harris" <Vista RTM is really Beta 1.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:eo8pfS2CHHA.1012@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Richard--
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like play to me. What about all those cry babies on the
>>>>> Vista/Longhorn Beta group Cafe and General groups posting hundreds of
>>>>> times
>>>>> a week "Mommy Mommy Wendy pullleasssse gimme a new build. What work
>>>>> ethic
>>>>> was that?
>>>>>
>>>>> It looked like Pre-School 101 to me. Think any of them were
>>>>> housebroken?
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW every one of these people felt like they were part of a chosen
>>>>> tribe and
>>>>> this psychology was fed by MSFT. I missed the scenario where any of
>>>>> them
>>>>> had a 12 gauge shotgun stuffed in their mouth and forced to test.
>>>>> Help me
>>>>> find that one.
>>>>>
>>>>> CH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS********.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:%233hRqezCHHA.4464@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> "Jon Acord" <JOn@theacords.biz> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:53678CBE-647E-45B3-A516-7B6548691DF8@microsoft.com...
>>>>>>> It's been a long road helping Micro$oft beta test Vi$ta. I've been
>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> since it was called Longhorn. I have submitted Just under a dozen
>>>>>>> bug
>>>>>>> reports. I have installed and uninstalled it more times than I care
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> remember in my zeal and enthusiasm. I have believed in this product
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> one else did. When I hear that Micro$oft is giving away
>>>>>>> 'complimentary'
>>>>>>> copies only to MSDN and TechNet subscribers I felt as if someone had
>>>>>>> slapped
>>>>>>> my face. So, just because I tested Vi$ta VIA the customer preview
>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am screwed out of my gift? I feel I have earned a copy. You mean,
>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>> did not pay Micro$oft a $600.00 subscription fee to beta test and
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>> their software I am beneath their notice? This is typical of a
>>>>>>> large,
>>>>>>> bloated, corporate monster that does not care one iota about the
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> made them their most precious $$$. This proves that Micro$oft does
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> a heart, all they care about is money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>> This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "I
>>>>>>> Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button,
>>>>>>> follow
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> click "I Agree" in the message pane.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [url]http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.mspx?mid=53678cbe-647e-45b3-a516-7b6548691df8&dg=microsoft.public.windows.vista.general[/url]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are "NOT" a beta tester unless you signed on as such. Getting
>>>>>> Vista
>>>>>> from the CCP site was just an opportunity for you to try it out. Some
>>>>>> true
>>>>>> beta testers were reloading their operating systems on an almost
>>>>>> daily
>>>>>> basis. It took a lot of work, no play. They had to dedicate a large
>>>>>> part
>>>>>> of their daily hours to this task (not play).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know of one fellow who sometimes loaded 2 times a day when he got
>>>>>> word
>>>>>> of a newer version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, you are owed NOTHING - period!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>>> Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
>>>>>> (For email, remove the obvious from my address)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quote from George Ankner:
>>>>>> If you knew as much as you think you know,
>>>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]